.png)
Our 1 Blessed Mess
Honest conversations about faith, family, life, and business.
Ben and Liz have six kids, even more chickens, and a whole heap of chaos—but they wouldn’t have it any other way. Life is messy, unpredictable, and full of God’s blessings. Liz left a six-figure business to focus on raising their family and building an entrepreneurial home, while Ben, a designer/developer, helps keep their beautifully chaotic world running. With 4 teenagers and countless adventures, they tackle life’s challenges with faith, humor, and grace. On their podcast, they’ll encourage, challenge, inspire, and, most importantly, make you laugh as they share the ups and downs of finding God in the middle of it all.
Learn more at https://www.our1blessedmess.com/
Our 1 Blessed Mess
Ep. 20 - Worthy of Your Pain: Reconciling Suffering with Faith
What happens when faith collides with real-world suffering? We tackle this question head-on, diving deep into a conversation most would rather avoid. Pain is universal—no one escapes it—yet our Western church culture often lacks a robust theology for navigating life's darkest valleys.
Through the lens of Job's ancient story, we uncover how God never explains the "why" behind suffering, offering instead His presence and character. This biblical truth challenges common misconceptions that obedience equals comfort or that faith shields us from hardship. Jesus himself promised trouble in this world, while Paul, Peter, and James all spoke of suffering as an expected part of the faith journey.
Science confirms what scripture suggests: transformation often emerges from our deepest pain. Studies reveal that 50-60% of trauma survivors experience positive change through what psychologists call Post-Traumatic Growth—new possibilities, deeper relationships, increased personal strength, spiritual renewal, and greater appreciation for life.
Whether you're currently walking through darkness or supporting someone who is, this conversation offers both comfort and challenge. God collects our tears, draws near to the brokenhearted, and promises His presence through the waters and fires of life. Consider sharing this episode with someone who needs to hear they're not alone in their suffering.
Your Listening to our 1 blessed mess, with ben and liz
Welcome to Our One Blessed Mess. This is Ben and Liz, and we're here sharing our story of how we raised six kids that we had in eight years, managing our entrepreneurial home with two businesses, homeschooling and currently navigating life with four teenagers plus seven, two dogs and two more kids, aka goats goats we've got some goats. We got the goat life. Yes, we have goat life. That actually should be like on a t-shirt or something. People who have other goats they understand.
Liz:It's like people with chickens, they understand oh yeah there is such a thing as chicken math, or is there such a thing as goat math?
Ben:I don't know, how does that work?
Ben:I well, chicken math is like you, school me, school me in the goat math.
Liz:Well, chicken math is like it's a joke among other people who have chickens that you start out with maybe a few chickens but before you know it, you end up with like multiple hens like rabbits yes, I guess like rabbits we have not gotten into rabbit yeah, but goats, here we are with two little boy goats and they are fun and energetic and very cute when they run around.
Liz:Yeah, it is pretty cute, it's really cute. But with that being said, you know we have all that just to basically keep our life interesting. But today's conversation topic is about what?
Ben:Today we're going to talk about something that is not like the most I don't know joyful thing.
Liz:No, it's not, it really isn't, it's kind of a little bit of a downer, because it's pain.
Ben:That's what we're going to talk about.
Liz:We were going through this and talking about it, I said, ben, I don't think this is a very lighthearted conversation.
Ben:It's not a lighthearted conversation, no.
Liz:But the truth is is every single one of us walk through this.
Ben:We need it though.
Liz:We do need it we need to talk about it. And you cannot escape this.
Ben:No, you can't, there's no way.
Liz:You can't Think your way through it. Away from it.
Ben:I mean you can think your way through it. You can't go around it.
Liz:Okay, he's being funny. So in my business, when I was working with a lot of women, we would say I will let no one push my buttons. And basically we say I'll go over, I'll go under, I'll go through any obstacle that comes in my way. But you always say it wrong oh, can't go over, it, can't.
Ben:I'm like that is not what it is, you gotta go through it.
Liz:Yeah, you.
Ben:Oh great.
Ben:It's a good thing, okay, well, speaking of pain, that was painful, yeah it was painful. Okay. So this question, right, is about suffering, right, and the question is is God worthy of our pain? Is he? You know, we often say God is worthy of our praise, he's worthy of our worship, he's worthy of our lives. But I don't know. Very few of us get to that point where we're like is he worthy of our pain? And we can have a definite yes behind that because it's hard.
Ben:It is hard and I think sometimes we have bad theology around pain, Like why would a good God allow bad things to happen? Is suffering a sign of something else?
Liz:That is deep because I have to admit there have been times that I've judged other people who are going through pain as if like well, maybe it's because of X, y and Z.
Ben:Yeah, you think it's like a sign. Oh yeah, because you've done that. It's a sign. It's indicative that there's something else going on. One thing if, like, they have been living in a certain lifestyle and it's like, well, you know, yeah in a certain lifestyle and it's like, well, you know, yeah, reaping what you sow, yeah, yeah, but yeah, like we're very quick to just associate suffering with, maybe, something that is completely bad, or or deserving yep, and and sometimes we don't even understand the meaning behind pain, right, and you know, just like attributing it to something else or just being a sign for something else.
Ben:I'm thinking of signs, I'm thinking of a sign that you came across one time with the kids Okay. Yeah, political sign. Oh, a political sign, and I'm thinking of when you saw it and you stopped. Oh, this is so funny, and a kid was having some pain at the moment because he had to go pee so badly. Yes, and you stopped to let him out of the car.
Liz:Hold on, hold on. I got to back up, so I was on the phone with one of my clients.
Ben:Yeah.
Liz:And we had just left another home and they actually had chickens. This is before we had our chickens.
Ben:There you go.
Liz:So this friend of mine was like bring your kids over. Before we had our chicken. So we she, this friend of mine was like bring your kids over, they can see all of our chickens. We have baby chicks. So I took all my kids over and actually, ironically, they had goats. Oh my gosh Anyway. And so we go and we do this, and we see the chickens and see the goats.
Liz:And as we're driving home, as always somebody has to go to the bathroom, and at this time we had the little minivan and so you could open the doors from the push button. And so I pulled over on the side of the road because it was like a very important point in the conversation and I had the kids on with watching a movie. But I was like all right, I'm just going to pull over, they can sit there and watch this movie, and I'm going to get out on the side of the road and finish this conversation. Well, as I'm on this conversation, unfortunately it's like we're a T in the road, like the road that we turned on T'd into a major road.
Liz:So I was kind of off the major road and all of a sudden the door opens and a kid sticks out their head and says Mom, mom, I got to go pee, I have to go pee. And I muted the phone while this person's talking and I'm like what? And they're like I have to pee, really bad. And I'm like, ok, just get out and pee on the tire. Well, they didn't hear me say that because it was a boy, and I'm like, you know, you don't want them to be visible. And I'm trying to hurry up this call with this person so I could get. We're not very far from where there could be a bathroom and what happens? All of a sudden, this child.
Liz:Now, you guys, this is 2016. And this is when there were the presidential elections happening, and so at this particular spot that I was at, not too far from me, was all of these political signs, and so my child gets out and begins to pee on a political sign. Now, they don't know what's going on and I'm on the phone and I'm trying to wrap up this call, you know, because it was very important, like right at that moment, and the timing was off, and so I had to pull over and take the call and I thought the kids were fine watching a movie because they were all in their car seats, and instead that child starts peeing on the sign and I'm like muting the call, asking their horn and like whoa, yeah. I'm like no, no, no, no, you know. And then, like in between the person talking to me, I'm like I'm muting. I'm like yeah, yeah, muting, I'm like get back in the van.
Liz:What are you doing? I said you could pee right outside the door, not on the sign, not on the sign. Well then that kid goes in and then all of a sudden another head pops out, the van door opens Mom, I really have to go to the bathroom. I really have to go to the bathroom. I'm like, okay, but just go right screaming, pee on the sign, pee on the sign, pee on the sign. And so literally whoever that I don't even remember who the kid is they're peeing on another sign. And then, of course, people are driving by, you know, honking their horns. It was terrible. I'm like this is not happening. What just happened?
Ben:Wow.
Ben:Yeah, it was awful who's the role model for these kids? It's boys.
Liz:It was boys it obviously unbelievable their father, because it's not me. I don't have that body part, and you know yeah well anyway, you know, and when you have little ones and they're doing the pp dams like you just you gotta make it happen. That's real pain right there yeah, and this phone call was only, like you know, in the midst of it was like maybe eight minutes. You know, it was like a really quick thing, but it was like one right after the other, I'm thinking good. Lord. So, anyway, this has nothing to do with pain but I guess they were in pain.
Liz:Yeah, I guess, so yeah.
Ben:But that's not what we're talking about today, but a little bit. We, you know we're obviously we want to qualify, we're not experts and we just have the life that we've lived and some of the antidotes that we can share. But we do feel like especially the Western church we just don't have a great grasp on pain. Maybe that's because we don't suffer persecution on a regular basis.
Liz:We haven't had war on our country and our land in a long time.
Ben:I mean, it's been what?
Liz:since the Civil War. So we haven't, we're not, war torn. Yes, this is true. Maybe.
Ben:So we just, you know, we have an aversion of pain and again it's not, I mean, it's not right or wrong, but we just don't. We don't have the experience, and so a lot of times we turn to the prosperity side of the gospel.
Ben:Right.
Ben:And we focus on that piece of it and then we preach the prosperity gospel, and so there's some things that can kind of get a little distorted. If we're only hearing about the prosperous side of the gospel, then we can start equating pain with something that is anti-biblical. And I want to just pause there and say that is a misconception. And some of the misconceptions that we can have is that obedience equals comfort, that kind of prosperity gospel. A lot of times we get that like if we're obeying, then we'll be, comfort We'll have, we'll live a comfortable life, we won't have any pain.
Liz:Right, and unfortunately I have been in that pool swimming there. I thought that too. Keep going, keep going. Another one Just reading my mail Keep going.
Ben:Another one is this implicit promise that faith will shield us from suffering right. So, there's that obedience part equals comfort. There's that if we have enough faith, we won't have suffering. And then a third kind of dangerous point here is that suffering equals punishment, and so those three, I think, are common misconceptions that come from just focusing on the prosperity side of the gospel. I'm not saying that God doesn't want us to prosper.
Ben:I believe he does.
Ben:But there's also some points that Liz is going to take us into about what we can expect in this life, and it's not underlined with prosperity. What is it have?
Liz:you been reading my journal, because I just feel like those three things that you said have been in my journal.
Ben:Maybe I should.
Liz:Maybe I don't know, I'm like dang, I feel so convicted, but it's true. It's so true what you just said. So there is a biblical expectation in regards to suffering.
Ben:There is.
Liz:And Jesus talks about it, paul talks about it, james talks about it. And so just some quick scriptures real fast. Jesus says in this world you will have trouble. That's in John 16, 33. Paul says we must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God. That's in Acts 14, 22. Peter says do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you. First, peter, 4, 12. And then, last but not least, james says consider it pure joy whenever you face trials. And that's in James 1, verse 2. But the thing is is we don't like those verses. We want them out of our Bible, right, we want to omit them. We want happy, joy, peace and it's like, but we go through pain, we go through suffering.
Ben:We do, and they're what we should expect, right? If? Jesus and Paul and Peter and James are all telling us and prepping us to expect this, then it's probably something we need to have at least some type of understanding about right and we can't just throw away the idea of suffering, meaning that we're in sin, okay. So I think that's crucial, and the ultimate story that really illustrates that is Job. Yeah, job is such a head scratcher it is.
Liz:And do you remember when our son, when we would ask him our oldest, we'd say, what's your favorite book in the Bible? Because he was just reading the Bible. So much. He's like Job, I just love Job. And even just recently in one of our family devotions. And he's like Job, I just love Job. And even just recently in one of our family devotions, somehow we got on Job and he had so much wisdom.
Ben:Right.
Liz:He was still gleaning from. I mean, I don't think he's read it like thoroughly in the last couple of years, right, but he was like oh no it's so good, he studied it yeah. He's like everybody should really read Job. And I'm like most I don't know, I don't know how to describe, yeah, maybe the most delightful conclusions there's some incredible things in there there is, there's, I mean there's some beautiful things about the character of god and his interaction with the lord and his sovereignty.
Ben:It's beautiful, but at the same time it's like this man went through a lot and you're thinking if I read this, this is probably going to happen to me.
Liz:I don't want to read it because I don't want to experience it. I don't want to know if I'm dumb and happy.
Ben:I'd rather be dumb and happy. It's terrible.
Liz:But you can't be that when you're married to Ben, all right, keep going I. But you can't be that when you're married to Ben, all right, keep going.
Ben:I don't think it's good. I don't think it's good to go through life without understanding this part, and so let's just set it up, okay. So here is a righteous man, job. He was righteous. In fact, god's even bragging about his righteousness.
Liz:It's crazy, right, it's crazy.
Ben:Have you considered my servant Job, and so it. It's really kind of indicative that here is this righteous man who doesn't have that connection to suffering because of what he's done.
Ben:Right.
Ben:Okay, so right out of the gate, right? We know that he is quote, unquote innocent. Again, I'm assuming he has sin at some level, but he doesn't walk in sin. He's walking in a righteous way and, just like all of us, we've all fallen short. But he's not continuing to do it. He's living his life in a righteous manner, right? So much so that God vouches for his own character, for Job's own character, and what we're finding out is like the setup here is that the suffering is not a punishment for sin, it's a test.
Ben:Right.
Ben:God's even you know saying directing the adversary to Job because of his faithfulness. Which is crazy, and in fact he loses Job, loses everything, in spite of his faithfulness.
Liz:All of it. Yeah, it was really intense. Um, I mean even the false comfort of job's friends. Uh, you know the first one. I always say the first one's name. Weird, how do you say? Elif elif as yeah, elif, as I'm so glad to roll off the tongue we all of our boys names start with the letter e and I'm so glad we didn't name any of them.
Ben:We could have pulled Eliphaz.
Liz:Eliphaz. What's up, Eliphaz? But anyway, he said to Job in Job 4.7, he said who being innocent has ever perished? Whoa, and then Bildad, if you are pure and upright, surely he would rouse himself for you. And that was spoken to Job.
Ben:These are his friends right, his friends trying to comfort him, trying to comfort him.
Liz:This to Job. These are his friends, right, His friends trying to comfort him. Trying to comfort him, this is not comfort, no. And then Zophar says know then that God exacts of you less than your guilt deserves. That is crazy. So what do those all have in common? Not good friends.
Ben:Well, it's just that they all thought they all had this kind of concept this theology that suffering must be deserved. Okay, so what you can take out of those three is that they had in their minds Job. You are going through this ordeal because of something you have done.
Liz:And that was not the case. And you know, even his wife, I mean, she was like just die, basically.
Ben:First.
Liz:God and die. I mean mean this poor guy. You know he boils on his body. He was in pain he loses children.
Ben:Yeah, he loses children, he loses possessions, he loses his health, I mean everything. He didn't lose his wife, though, well, benjamin but, but it turns a corner.
Liz:But you know, joe was, he had an honest lament, didn't he? He really did.
Ben:Yeah, I mean he has lament right, it's not that Job just takes it and just is like oh yeah, everything's normal.
Liz:Right.
Ben:There is some wrestling that Job goes into and he questions God directly. He wants God to explain himself, right, and I don't think that's necessarily sin. I think, Job is at a place where he's like. I know my character. I know that I've lived righteously.
Ben:Right.
Ben:God, I want to know, why am I going through this? And so he puts God on trial, so to speak, and he also is able to express his pain without abandoning his faith. And he gives this long discourse about like the curses of the day that he was born, and it's just like it's this poetic.
Ben:And he's lamenting yes, and he's demanding of God to answer him, but yet he's maintaining this relationship with God. I think a lot of us would just be like Job's wife and be like hey man, I'm out, you know this is not what I signed up for, right, I don't believe in you anymore, but Job is like no. I know God's character. I'm putting him to the test.
Ben:Like why?
Ben:What is going on? God and he's so he's maintaining that relationship, but how does God respond? This is the crazy part.
Liz:Yeah, it's pretty crazy because he basically, in revealing himself to Job, he's not explaining, but God never explains the why, like he's just.
Ben:That's so intense.
Liz:Yeah, can you?
Ben:imagine going through all the things that he did and then it's like oh yeah, you don't get an answer. I mean, you get an answer but you don't get a why. It's kind of what we do our kids when they're like why we're?
Ben:like because I said so.
Liz:Because I said so. Maybe that's where it all stems from Job, or as people call it, Job I'm just kidding Job, but no. Instead, God reveals his character and sovereignly, and he asks Job if he is able to run things even for a day. I mean really, the Lord comes back.
Ben:So he kind of puts Job on trial, right, like Job puts God on trial, and then God's like well, how about you? Can you do what I do, right?
Liz:Yeah, but you know, and of course Job cannot do what God does. I mean, it's beautiful how the Lord responds to him, you know, and Job's conclusion basically is he says my ears had heard of you, but now my eyes have seen you.
Ben:Okay, time out, guys. This is so nuts. Okay, so, in the midst of this crazy suffering that I don't think anybody has ever experienced, maybe before and since, I don't know, we don't know.
Liz:I mean, we have no idea.
Ben:We don't know everybody in the world, but like, however, I don't know of anybody who's even lost all their children in one day. Maybe, maybe that's happened. But then all your possessions and then your health to like all of that happening in the same time period. Yeah, it's crazy. And his conclusion is that he knows God more. He is better acquainted with God. He understands the Lord more his form. He has seen God. He knows the experience that he's gained from this ordeal. It's something that transforms.
Ben:Right.
Ben:And he's never given the answer of the why, but he's left in this place of understanding and it just blows your mind because it's like maybe that was the whole point is to take my eyes off of my own suffering and put them back on God.
Liz:Yes, and I just want to say one of the reasons why we're bringing this up and talking about this, so again like this, is our one blessed mess. A lot of times, when we're talking about these different subjects, is because these are dialogues or things that we're walking through or have walked through.
Liz:And we feel like we want to invite whoever's listening to this into the conversation. So you know, we often kid around and say you know, pretend that you just had a cup of coffee with us or you just finished a meal with us and we're having a dessert and we're talking about this. And the reason why we're bringing this up is because in our community we have just walked through a tremendous amount of suffering and pain, unbelievable amounts In fact. We've even had family members reach out to us and asking hey, how are you guys?
Liz:You're kind of at ground zero. Right, because there's been let's go through it.
Ben:Let's go through it, yeah.
Liz:I mean, where do you want to start?
Ben:Because I feel like there's so many things. Just recently we had a shooting at the local college here.
Liz:Yeah, we had at the university.
Ben:Several people died there's tons of people that are experiencing pain and loss and even injury. There was several that were in critical condition and, I think, are pulling through, but we had a shooting like right here in a local college. Um, we had someone take his life in the last couple of weeks, yeah, and last couple of weeks we had a friend um, whose son took his life We've had multiple passings death.
Liz:I mean like there's just another one that happened today, and it's just like there's just grief upon grief. Um, I'm also thinking, you know, we brain know we've had two friends with two of their. Two of our friends, two different kids had brain tumors found out within two days apart and both had to go through brain surgeries. And you know, the one is going to be doing chemo and radiation, the other one I think it was malignant yeah.
Liz:And so it's okay, or other one. I think it was malignant, yeah, and so it's okay, or benign.
Ben:I say it benign.
Liz:And, but you know, walking and we're close with those families, so we have been in constant connection with that, you know, and then also with the shooting that just happened in our city.
Ben:Right.
Liz:You know the, the first responders that were there, that were on on the partner of somebody that we know actually took down the the gunman.
Ben:And then, and then, yeah.
Liz:And then the friend that we have cuffed him and so they're walking through, and so there's just like it. And and then we know people who were in the student union when it happened. You know people on campus I mean I was getting messages before it even hit the socials pray right now, and so you know cause they heard the gunshots, they were there and they're reaching out for prayer and students. And so it's just like um, it has been like one thing after another.
Liz:We had a family member who got into some trouble and recently, you know, tangled with the law, like it's just like guys we're talking, like within a couple of weeks, like this hasn't even been a full like it's just like one, and we're being affected by it closely.
Ben:It's not just um it's like a season of pain.
Liz:Yeah, it's like a season of pain, and so even family members are reaching out to us and they're like, hey, how are you? Because we have been literally in the trenches, on ground zero, helping, caring loved ones through this, through prayer, even practically taking kids, taking meals, calling, praying, meeting, all the things that need to be done because we're in community. And so it brings up this question about pain. Yeah, it does, I mean, it really does.
Ben:It really does, and from what we can tell about why Job went through what he did, we know that it's not connected necessarily to him deserving it, and so his restoration is that deserved too. I don't know. I think there's some questions that are still left unanswered. And you can read between the lines and you can try to summarize, but I think the whole point of the book is that we keep our eyes on God and we stay humble before him, even in the midst of suffering, and that's not a popular message.
Liz:No, it's not we want to know.
Ben:We want to be able to justify our pain. We want to be able to justify our suffering. We want to know there's a purpose for it.
Ben:Right.
Ben:But sometimes that purpose is just to be humbled.
Liz:Right, and he does do that.
Ben:Yeah, but it's unpopular. It is unpopular.
Liz:Nobody wants to talk about that.
Ben:But we want to dive into really quick just some of the brain science behind the concept of post-traumatic growth.
Liz:Hold on, Ben. You're going into brain science and you don't have your science glasses on.
Ben:Oh no, Maybe I should go switch out my glasses.
Liz:No, we don't have time, we don't.
Ben:We don't have time, I don't have my clear glasses on, which Liz affectionately calls my science glasses. They look like goggles.
Liz:But here he goes, he's going to dive into brain science. This is good. This is really good. Everybody wants to hear it. Sorry for interrupting.
Ben:That's okay. So American Psychology Association has found studies have shown that 50 to 60% of trauma survivors report positive change. Right, okay, and we'll get into some of the why behind that. But just know, like out of the gate, about half the people that go through traumatic experiences it can be used for positive in their life, or at least we can spin it so that way there is positive change. Does it mean that they would choose it? I don't think so, but you?
Liz:mean choose, going through the trauma Sure they wouldn't choose that. But they're making the choice to choose for it to be a positive. They're looking at it as a way to and they're seeing that it has had positive change in their life. Yep.
Ben:So there was two doctors that kind of did a little bit more research into this area and they came up with this acronym, ptgi, which is post-traumatic growth inventory, okay, and so they break it down a little bit. It shows metrics around the positive changes, the psychological changes that happen following traumatic events, and those are in five key areas new possibilities relating to others, key areas, new possibilities relating to others, personal strength, spiritual change and appreciation for life. Okay, so those are the five key factors.
Liz:For PTGI.
Ben:PTGI. Remember that. So PTGI is modestly related to optimism and extroversion, and so basically what that means is that when we go through these experiences and we keep a positive outlook and we use it to connect to others, then that those five factors are strengthened. There's a relationship, there's the positive that comes in those five areas when we can see positively and we can connect with others through the pain.
Liz:Now Philippians 4.8,. That's what this says to me.
Ben:Yeah.
Liz:Think on these things.
Ben:Yeah.
Liz:And so science is just proving, yeah, and trauma and pain is going to happen.
Ben:It is.
Liz:And so if we take the Bible for what it's saying.
Ben:Right.
Liz:Like science is basically saying this PDGI thing Sounds hilarious. That's basically what it's saying. Right, like science is basically saying this PDGI thing Sounds hilarious. That's basically what it's saying.
Ben:Yeah, yeah, and some really interesting things. Women tend to report more benefits than men.
Liz:Isn't that interesting? Is it because we talk more?
Ben:I think it's because you're more social creatures.
Liz:We are Typically than men. What does that mean?
Ben:Well, I think you're using that extroversion part of it to experience the positive that can come in those five factors.
Liz:So we're just super social.
Ben:Yeah, yeah, and I think sometimes that works in favor of people especially who's gone through events and can connect to others.
Liz:Well, and that's how women are wired? No, it's true. I mean if, like even we just talked about all the things that are going on in our community.
Ben:Yeah.
Liz:Like it's happening. I just want to say something that I was thinking about when Jesus, you know, when Jesus was on the cross and he died and they put him in the tomb. I always think about all those women and like somebody planned the casserole, somebody was getting a meal plan going for Mary, like there was like there was, like they were on it. You know it was the women were the first ones to the tomb. You know they had everything with them to come and and take care of the body and he wasn't there, right.
Liz:So I just I'm not surprised in some ways, and that's just a gift of how God has made women. And we should own it, ladies, don't dismiss it. So, ben you were, you own it, that I own it.
Ben:I will own it, that you own it.
Liz:Thank you. This PTG, I think I don't know where you're going with that. I don't know, I just want you to own it.
Ben:Real quick. Also, people who have experienced these traumatic events report more positive change than new persons who have never experienced extraordinary events. Okay, that's interesting. I think they're Right. I mean, obviously you can look at it two different ways, but if at least 50% of people 50% greater are reporting positive changes because of these crazy events, these post-traumatic events, then that means there's a lot of people that can see the benefit. They can see that those events do shape us.
Ben:Right they form us.
Ben:Right, it's almost like second Corinthians, one, three and four makes a lot of sense through this lens. I'm just going to read it Praise be to God, the father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the father of compassion and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in our troubles so that we can comfort those who are in trouble any trouble with the comfort we ourselves received from God. I feel like this verse is kind of illustrated with some of those findings when we go through our troubles and God comforts us, we can then in turn comfort others, and I feel like that's that extroversion piece of the PDGI and seeing those five key factors that can become alive in people after these events, and a lot of it has to do with reaching out in community.
Liz:Absolutely, and I'm just thinking how children a lot of times. What happens when kids get scars and they hurt their knee and they're like oh, look at my knee. And then they're like look at my elbow and they're showing you all their scars of where they had hurt themselves. And so to me, I think about when we go through trials and tribulations and pain and suffering there's wounding, but the wounds heal.
Ben:There is and if you heal with other people, there's strong identities that form. Absolutely In fact there's even studies that show that when men are off in war, so this is for you men out here. We talked about some ladies that got some points.
Ben:That's hilarious With the guys when they experience intensities in war there is a strong super strong bond that is formed In fact it's so strong that sometimes people even report.
Ben:Men often report depression of not feeling that in society when they come back from war. So, they want to go re-sign up just to experience that bonding.
Liz:Yeah, isn't it interesting when you get into that? But I was just thinking about the wounds, and so it's talking about the comfort we ourselves receive from God, and so we're able to share. Look at this wound, even though this happened to me, but look at how it healed. So I know you're in pain right now and I know you're suffering right now. I've been there, you know, and even when maybe we don't understand fully their pain, but because we have experienced the pain that we can really come and be empathetic.
Ben:And it's.
Liz:It's so good to have that empathy, to be empathetic, and it's so good to have that empathy. We talk about that a lot with our children because they don't always understand the person down the street and why they're suffering and what's going on, and so instilling that in them. But when they're dealing with trials we're like remember this.
Ben:Do you remember that?
Liz:Now they can relate a little bit better, but it's so real.
Ben:It.
Liz:So real. It is real and I feel like you have a story, Mr Ben I do I have a story?
Ben:I want to. I want to be a little bit vulnerable here. I want to talk about my pain story, and we all have stories. We all have pain that we've gone through. Mine spans more than a decade and I'm still. I'm still living it. I'm still living it, I'm still in it and I'm still expecting to come through it 100%. I'm not there yet.
Ben:Right.
Ben:But I do want to just talk about my story and about the pain that I've experienced and even the mistakes that I made through walking it out and so jumping into it back in 2013,. I was playing disc golf, the crazy contact sport of disc golf. No, it's not. There's no contact. It's not.
Liz:There's no contact. It's literally you and a disc.
Ben:Yeah, me, and a disc and a basket. So if you run into the basket I guess maybe you'll have contact.
Liz:But you weren't just playing, you were like playing no I was playing.
Ben:I was playing too much. I was going almost every day, not quite, but I was going maybe three or four times a week and I just started out with my own business, and so I was trying to learn schedules.
Liz:We need to save that for another episode. We do. Yeah, there's a lot to unpack there.
Ben:But basically I was, when you first started out, feeling the freedom of my entrepreneur journey, and so I was like, yeah, I'm gonna play disc golf every and then working until Every day during lunch.
Ben:And then spending later, later evenings getting this stuff done. That I would have gotten done. So, anyways, I was out, I was playing a lot and I was throwing one day and I was throwing forehand, so it was a flicking motion. You really load up your shoulder when you throw that way, and so I'd learned to throw that way. It wasn't the correct way, um, or not the most common way, and when I did one day I felt something give in the back of my shoulder, in my back muscles.
Ben:It was almost like they seized up and it scared me. I was like whoa, what is that? It didn't necessarily hurt, but it was just. It felt funky and it felt like something was wrong. So I threw again and the same thing, same sensation happened, and so I was like oh man, I need to stop.
Ben:I think I might've pulled something, so I'll just take a month off. So I did that. I chilled out for a couple of weeks and then went back and started throwing again and it didn't really hurt. And so I started playing regularly again and I started throwing other ways, just because it felt more comfortable. But it started a journey for about three years where I was experiencing different pains, different discomforts. I was even having digestion irregularity and I was being sensitive to certain foods and I was having ocular migraines Pain all night long.
Liz:Yeah, and so just, just all kinds of crazy stuff. You would wake up in the middle of the night and be like, hit me, hit me. And I'm like hit, hit right here Hard as you can try to hit and I'm like hit you, I'm like you need help, honey, and he's like dig your elbow in. I mean, you would just be in so much pain and we were trying over the counter medicine.
Ben:We were trying all the things. Yep, trying different things. We tried different diet. I wasn't quite sure. Sure, because I remember having that event and feeling something wrong, but it wasn't necessarily painful, and so I kind of just dismissed it as like, oh yeah, that was just a pulled muscle.
Liz:Because there was digestion and you were having headaches. Yeah, I was having headaches, ocular migraines.
Ben:my vision was getting weary, so we were thinking.
Liz:I mean, we were thinking like maybe you have a tumor cancer.
Ben:I was thinking, what's it? Lyme's disease yeah, we were thinking all kinds of things.
Liz:You know, but he would have excruciating pain here. Now we understand, because we understand the anatomy of the body and the event of it, but it's been a journey.
Ben:It has been a journey. And so we got. We finally saw someone. We saw a chiropractor who was like hey man, you're always really tight on your right side, you should go get it checked out, you should go get an MRI. So I did. This was about three or four years later and I got it checked out.
Ben:And they saw that I had torn my labrum in my right shoulder so I did a surgery and the surgery was unsuccessful, and so this is the part where it's really intense. So I was rehabbing on a torn labrum going through the PT, but the surgery wasn't successful and I had no idea why it was so painful, but it was like really bad and I got suicidal.
Ben:And so I haven't told a whole lot of people that my wife knows and a few other people, but I was really having suicidal thoughts. I was like I don't know if I can continue doing this, Like just lifting my arm, just doing some of the day-to-day stuff is really painful and there was just issues in my neck where blood wasn't flowing through my head correctly.
Liz:You're in pain. Yeah, I was in pain and you didn't see a way out. I didn't.
Ben:I didn't see a way out, and there were a few things that would help, here and there, just a little bit but nothing would fully relieve the pain, and so I started making bad decisions, I started doing things that I shouldn't have done and I just went down this journey, and a lot of it had to do with just not being accountable and just trying to numb the pain, and so I ended up doing things that were just bad and got into addictive behaviors.
Ben:And so that went on for some time. I got another surgery, things got better and I finally got some counseling and overcame the addictions. And my wife was amazing. Through all of it she stuck with me and just worked with me and it was really humbling. At the end of the day, I can say that I was really humbled because I thought I could do it by myself. I thought I could just pull myself up by my bootstraps and just keep moving forward and it wasn't the case.
Ben:No, it wasn't it wasn't the case.
Ben:I had to reach out, I had to be honest, I had to get help.
Ben:Yeah, you did.
Ben:And it even involved professional help.
Ben:Yes, I did, and so a lot of people just don't have a grid for that. They're just like, oh well, you know, just confess your sins, you'll be fine, and it's like, well, yeah, but you know, there's also professionals out there that can help and can deal with the trauma and can deal with the addictive lifestyles. And so I went down that path. I'm really thankful that I did, and I know I'm not totally healed yet, but I know that God is using the pain to teach me so many things.
Ben:Yes, he is.
Ben:And a lot of it is humility. I mean just like Job.
Liz:I don't necessarily have an answer, I don't know, the why behind it, but I do know that God is faithful and I do see his hand leading me through even the restoration piece of it and even if I'm not healed, I still feel changed and transformed you are, and as your wife watching you walk through this, I would have to say I'm thankful for the journey that we've had because of the man that you've become, and it has been hard.
Ben:It was very dark.
Liz:Sometimes it was very dark, especially when you were going through the season of wanting to take your own life, and actually the Lord was the one who spoke to me.
Ben:That's crazy. I didn't tell Liz I was keeping it all to myself and that's a problem. I mean, I don't know if it's the rugged individualism that our culture loves so much or what, but I just thought I could be the big man and not share, and didn't work out too well. That's not how it works, though. It's not how it works.
Liz:And so the Lord and his sweetness just gently like revealed to me what was going on and when I confronted you, fortunately you were honest and just that, and so getting through that was because I basically told you if you take your life, I'm coming and I'm waking you up, and then I'm taking your life.
Ben:I'm going to resurrect you and take you again.
Liz:I was like look, you cannot do that. You cannot leave me with six kids without you, you know, because it's hard it is it's hard? And you know you are human Right. Right, you're not a superhuman. No, you are human, nobody is Right and the Bible says we will face trials and tribulations. I just didn't know it was going to be this in my life. Right and then, on top of it, then, the addictions and the things that came from the pain.
Ben:Right.
Liz:And you have bit the bullet and you have made every effort possible to change. And I see it in your life. I see the fragrance of Christ in your life, I see the hard work that you're doing and I see behind the scenes. And we've grown closer.
Ben:Yeah, this is true.
Liz:Because we have this wound.
Ben:Yeah.
Liz:And we do have a message to share and I know we're just kind of grazing over all of this just a little bit. There will be days that we will go deeper we will go much deeper.
Ben:Yeah.
Liz:And there's not many people who know about all of it. No, and so. But you know, I'm proud of you and I'm standing on the sidelines cheering you on. But I also know our heavenly father is standing on the cheer, on the sidelines, and he is cheering you on. Yeah, but you know, there's still the question mark, because your shoulder is still hurting.
Ben:Right, still in pain Right.
Liz:And we have done lots of things. Therapies I mean, I mean acupuncture, I don't think there's ARP, arp. Chiropractic.
Ben:Yeah, I don't think there's Injections. Two surgeries yes.
Liz:I don't think there's any stone that we haven't overturned Right and for the first time. Chronic pain is hard. A drug is not going to heal it.
Ben:No.
Liz:Right Nothing, it's our thought process.
Ben:You read.
Liz:You have to like you read about the study Right. That's true for you it is. You have to make a decision.
Ben:I had to see the positive in it. And as soon as I started taking the me centeredness out of it Right and got accountable and got honest with you and then I started seeing a path out Right. Right and to where it was like. Not about me, not about my pain, but about the transformative quality that God can have in relationship with me in the midst of the pain.
Liz:Right, right and in the midst of all of that, like here you are today and you still experience pain.
Ben:Yeah.
Liz:Like you're still even this week. I mean guys honestly like it was really tough.
Ben:I didn't know we were going to be able to film today because I was pretty bad off yesterday.
Liz:But thankfully, you know, by the Lord's grace like I'm able to be here and talk with you guys and so, yeah, it's good and there's also a side of grief, too, because you've been in pain for well over a decade that, like you, weren't able to throw the ball with the kids.
Ben:Right.
Liz:You weren't able to be outside with them.
Ben:Yeah.
Liz:You know, like taking them camping, you can't wear a backpack. Right, like there's so many things, and so, in a way, there was a handicap that was going on.
Ben:There was and I think a part of that is a lot of the disappointment that I was leaning into.
Ben:Right.
Ben:Like I felt abandoned, I felt handicapped and I felt like I didn't deserve it and those things, you know, those are real emotions, but they're all centered around me. You know, it was like I was only looking at the me aspect. I wasn't necessarily considering Liz, especially the suicidal thoughts, you know. I wasn't thinking about what it would do to her or what it would do to my kids, and so I really started I think the Lord started really unpacking what was there and the selfish attitudes that I have, and I think he used my pain to really get me to see how selfish I am.
Ben:I know that sounds kind of cruel, but it's not. It's actually mercy. I feel so alive now that the Lord spotlighted those issues. And I'm not perfect. Obviously you know that you live with me, but I feel like I'm much different. I'm in a different place in my life and I think I'm honestly happier than I've been in a really long time, a really long time.
Liz:And it's evident. I see the fruit, I'm up close and personal and I see the fruit and there is a marked difference.
Liz:So what's funny is before, even when you're in pain and all the things that were going on, I mean I could see that there was this struggle, but still somehow you're able to cope through it all and fake, because if you had asked me, I would have told you our marriage is great, because we do have a good marriage. We've always had a good marriage. But on this side of all of it, the realization, the truth of everything coming out on the table, our marriage is deeper.
Ben:Our love is deeper and there is true connection that.
Liz:I could have. I always thought, but it wasn't the real like. I still felt it wasn't in sync and now it's in sync.
Ben:It's amazing how that works. It is God is using and has used my pain to even bring us closer together, and that's amazing and I think there's some takeaways, right, liz? I mean there's like these are good antidotes, but I think that's the common thread with all of this is that you know whether it's our friend walking through the death of her husband or even experiencing you know a child that has a tumor and a very intense spot. Yeah, it's coming back, cancerous Even just our local community with a shooter, an active shooter and people lost their lives, yeah, and wounded.
Ben:There's never a lost opportunity, I think, for the Lord to move, and that's one of the takeaways that we have is that God doesn't waste our pain.
Liz:No, he doesn't. And it says in Romans 8. 28,. And I love this scripture. It's one that whenever I see 8, 28, I always think. Romans 8, 28, which says and we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. And then in second Corinthians one, verses three through four, it says praise be to the God and father of our Lord, jesus Christ, the father of compassion and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those who are in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves receive from God. It goes back to that wounds. Look at this wound, look at that wound.
Ben:And I think that's really cool because it's almost like our pain can be a ministry to others.
Liz:Absolutely.
Ben:And if you think about it like the resurrected Jesus, he didn't have this just completely new, perfect, transformed body. He had scars. Yeah, they were almost like trophies, if you think about it. Yes, because even in Revelations it talks about a lamb that was slain and it's like well, what is that? How is that symbol supposed to be, this champion? Or how do we value this slain part, these scars that Jesus carries? What does that mean? And I think it means that he can identify with us in our suffering.
Liz:Absolutely, absolutely. You know, I'm just thinking about Paul. He was beat up a lot. I wonder if he has his scars.
Ben:I'm sure he does Like will his face be mangled?
Liz:You know what I mean? I don't know. I mean, you're in your resurrected glorified body and obviously Jesus is Jesus. So the lamb that was slain, so it's Neil Peart's hand. I wonder, I wonder, I wonder if maybe our resurrected bodies might have some trophies. I have no idea, I don't know.
Ben:Who knows, but I do know this, though that God is present in our suffering.
Liz:Yes, he is, I've experienced that yes.
Ben:Right, I've felt the Lord. There were times where I pushed him away and then there was times where I pushed him away and then there was times where I welcomed him in and I can honestly say I'm so grateful for the times that I welcomed him in, because I'm a different person when I have done that.
Ben:In.
Ben:Psalms 34, 18,. The Lord is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit.
Ben:I know I felt that way. It wasn't a place of strength, it was a place of vulnerability and I didn't even want to be honest about it. Place of vulnerability and I didn't even want to be honest about it. But when I was and when the Lord reached out to me, even using my wife, even I felt the love of the Lord through Liz, and I know that he's close to the brokenhearted. I've experienced it myself. In Isaiah 43 too. When you pass through the waters, I will be with you, and when you pass through the rivers, they will not sweep over you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned and the flames will not set you ablaze. It's the promise of his presence. We don't have a promise of explanation.
Ben:We don't have a promise as to the why.
Liz:No, we do not. We do have a promise of presence. We do. And this scripture Isaiah 43, 2, is actually the scripture that one of our friends, her son, who has the cancerous tumor that they removed and he's going to be doing chemo and radiation and we just got a text message right before we started this that they're going to be putting in the port and this young man that we love so much.
Liz:I may cry but we've done a lot of life with this family, but this is the scripture that has been the one that she's been holding onto for the last couple of weeks and I I really didn't know that that was her scripture and one day I was praying for her and the Lord highlighted the scripture and I sent it to her. She's like Liz, this is the one and she had like one of those coloring books that you color in that has scriptures and things and it was the actual that scripture and she'd been coloring it in the hospital, you know, before his surgery, after his surgery.
Liz:And so it's so true, he's with you, he is for you, he's not going to like you.
Ben:And there's redemptive purposes, even in our suffering. You know God uses it for good and you know there's just there's some things that we just don't want to experience. We push away. I've done it, I don't understand it and maybe I don't deserve it, and, like Job, we kind of try to put God on trial, and I think that's the wrong expression.
Liz:The wrong heart posture. Well, it's the wrong heart posture, but we're human. We're human and we are going to do it. And we're going to do it, we are Well it's the wrong heart posture, but we're human.
Ben:We're human and we are going to do it and we're going to do it. We are and it's okay. I think that's part of it is just telling yourself it's okay to make some mistakes. It's okay to be angry, to be mad, but direct it back to God, because God is going to help you find the resolve that you need.
Ben:Absolutely you know, and even as Job did like he wrestled with it he had relationship with the Lord, even in the midst of the most crazy suffering that mankind's ever seen. Maybe I don't know, but he didn't abandon his relationship with God. And I think that was part of some of the problem that I had is that I turned to other things instead of the Lord, and when I turned back to God, I feel like the Lord really used that and really helped me find a way back to him.
Liz:He did Absolutely, and I've just been on the sidelines watching.
Ben:Cheering it on Yep.
Ben:Yes.
Liz:So the cross as God's ultimate answer to suffering.
Ben:Yeah, yeah. Like God, he took our place and he bore the brunt of the full suffering Right, and so he can identify with us. He can identify with us in our suffering.
Liz:Because you know, christ entered or he enters into our pain rather than explaining it away. And in Colossians 1.24,. It says Paul's mysterious statement about basically filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions. Yeah, that is a really crazy verse.
Ben:If you go, I recommend you go look that up in Colossians 124. There's just this kind of interesting statement about filling up what was lacking in Christ's afflictions, and he's talking about himself and himself experiencing afflictions, and so what does that mean? I don't know. I think that's part of some of the mystery. I think it's part of some of the expectation as believers, and especially as apostles, that they would suffer many things, and there's a promise that God is gonna be with us in the midst of it. But there's also kind of this I don't know if you'd call it a promise or an expectation, I don't know how you frame it, but it's coming, suffering will be there.
Liz:It's in the Bible. You should be expecting it.
Ben:Yes, you can't avoid it. You can't avoid it as much as we want prosperity, as much as prosperity is in the Bible. So is suffering. So it's like two sides of the same coin God gives and God takes away, just like Job said.
Liz:It must be the name of the Lord that takes away, just like Job said, it's right to be the name of the Lord. That's exactly what happens. So what are some practical steps, so practical steps.
Ben:I mean, this is something that we just don't do well enough in Western culture. We don't have a theology around lament, especially as a biblical practice, as part of I don't know if you call it spiritual disciplines, but as part of our faith expression, we have to lament, we have to lay out, just like David did in the. Psalms there is lament and there's something I think that's beautiful. There's a verse that talks about God collecting the tears of his saints and so even God cares about our suffering and it's something that he collects.
Ben:That's crazy, right. Who is this Lord, who is this God that even has a bottle for our tears and keeps it as a monument? I mean, there's just so much that goes into suffering. There's so much that God cares about the brokenhearted, about the contrite in spirit. Go and look that up. This is massively a part of God's character, absolutely. And if we don't talk about this, if we don't explain that the Lord is with, very close, very with, and even talks about how he dwells, and.
Ben:Isaiah talks about how he dwells on high and also with the broken and the contrite spirit. And so when we lament and we turn to God in our suffering and we pour out our lament, even as a song, as praise I know that sounds weird and we just don't do it enough in church, but personally when you do that, there's just something of an identity that forms when you go through something with the Lord and you're communicating with God in the midst of it. There is a strong bond that forms Just like those brothers in arms that are in war together.
Ben:If you're with the Lord and you're facing those trials, those facing those tribulations, and you keep your faith, you keep the promises that the Lord's given you. There's just something that is formed that I don't think is formed any other way.
Ben:That's right.
Ben:And so, even in the midst of community, right, god tells us in Romans 12, 15, sorry, paul tells us in Romans 12, 15, mourn with those who mourn. Right, we rejoice with those who rejoice and weep with those who weep. So again, we're not necessarily going to find the explanation, but I think we can find a purpose even without explanation. We can find a purpose that doesn't require an explanation. We can find humility, we can find being able to then minister to others. We can allow God to use those events, use those pains, to transform us into something beautiful.
Liz:Well, it's finding purpose in it. Yeah, it's finding purpose, and I'm just thinking too that I mean, this has been a great conversation about suffering and pain, and we knew this was going to be a heavy conversation, but I'm just thinking that when there are those that are going, those that are going through pain and suffering sometimes even me being that positive. Patty will just be like well, pull up your bootstraps and have the mind of Christ and praise him in the midst of it, when really, like Ecclesiastes says, there's a time for mourning.
Ben:Yes.
Liz:There's a time for dancing, and so I think when we're seeing those that are suffering or walking through it, like grief there's, like all these stages of grief, there's studies on it. It comes at all different times. We've been walking with a close friend that lost her husband and um, you know they have three little ones and so, you know, walking with her through that, and I, you know, I lost my dad.
Liz:You know what 14 years ago, and still grief comes at different times and um, but you know, suffering with pain, chronic pain, uh, there's just so much, and so I I feel that one of the things mourn with those who mourn that is something that is beautiful.
Ben:Yes, you have empathy for people having empathy. That is true, so I have to say that I have more empathy for people in pain than I've ever in my life and I sometimes I would even brush people off, like, oh, here's this chronic person that says they've got this problem. Maybe it's just in their head, maybe there's a hypochondriac. I used to think I was a hypochondriac. I would. I would turn to liz and be like am I a hypochondriac? What is going on with me?
Liz:I'm like you're too logical to be a hyperchondriac right now.
Ben:Yeah. But, I mean going a decade with pain almost every day.
Liz:It's more than a decade, by the way. Yeah, more than a decade.
Ben:It's true, more than a decade 12 years, 13 years, 13 years.
Ben:Yeah, Just man, I can tell you I have so much more empathy for someone who's going through pain. I'm like, yeah, and I don't know that I would have gotten it any other way.
Liz:I know, I just wish we didn't have to do it all, but we are.
Ben:Right.
Liz:Trials and tribulations.
Ben:Yeah, count it all joy.
Liz:Count it, all joy.
Ben:So wow, what a conversation this has been, we are here, it's a blessed mess, it's a one blessed mess, it's our one, bm Ben, said it's our big BM, our big BM.
Liz:Well, gosh, thank you for being a part of our one blessed mess today, and don't forget to subscribe like heart share with a friend that maybe needs encouragement. Maybe you know somebody who's walking through pain and suffering and they just don't feel like anybody understands. Maybe this episode would be a blessing to them. Our prayer is that God uses this for his glory, and if it is something that's touching you or you're witnessing it, we would love to hear from you.
Ben:Yeah, reach out.
Liz:Reach out. We'll pray for you, absolutely. We are so thankful that you are tuning in to us today and also follow us on Instagram or Facebook. Our handle is our one numeric one blessed mess. We try to upload videos there and some funny stories and things. So, you know, do, do subscribe, whether you're watching this, listening however it may be, but until next time we see each other, what we love to say is embrace your beautiful mess, because if our mess is blessed and can be blessed, then what then?
Liz:Then so can yours, then so can yours have a great day.
