Liz 0:12

Welcome to Our One Blessed Mess. This is Ben and Liz, and we are here telling our story of raising six kids that we had in eight years, managing our entrepreneurial home with two businesses, homeschooling, and currently navigating life with four teenagers, plus seven chickens and two dogs, and we're getting two goats. So we do all that just to keep our life interesting, because you know there's nothing going on in our home, right?

Liz 0:37

Never Boring, all the time.

Liz 0:41

So today's conversation topic is about what Ben? We've got a big topic today.

Ben 0:45

I've been looking forward to this topic probably since we started our podcast.

Liz 0:50

When we were getting ready for this, I was thinking this is why we started this podcast this is the big enchilada.

Ben 0:55

Yeah, this is the big one. This is the big one, the big one, the BM.

Liz 0:59

This is the big one. This is our big BM. This is our big BM.

Ben 1:02

Oh my gosh, maybe we should change the name of this podcast to Our Big BM Just kidding, kidding, kidding kidding, we shouldn't leave them in suspense this long well, it's gonna be, it's gonna be really good it is. It's gonna be good, it's gonna be heavy. I I would say buckle up, put your seat belt on, because buckle up buttercup. We're gonna be hitting some pretty heavy stuff and it's gonna be info intensive, but no, but it's gonna be good.

Liz 1:25

We're gonna hit with some some goodness at the end.

Ben 1:27

I think like we. Yeah, we're going to make sure we get that spoonful of sugar.

Liz 1:32

Yeah, the spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down, but this is really good. Again, whenever we're talking about these issues or conversation topics, we're really just inviting all of you into the conversation that we're having. That's right Into our own pain. Into our own pain and if you've been around us which we know we have a lot of friends who watch this we have brought this up in conversation probably for the last six months six to eight months. And so we're finally ready to bring it up with everybody else, because it hurts so bad.

Ben 2:02

It hurts so bad. Yeah, we're going to talk about a digital detox so I know that that is becoming more and more prevalent like that idea of needing one and we're going to talk about kind of what we've done as a family, but we're also going to like juxtaposition it with this concept of having face to face interactions as well.

Liz 2:23

Which is so fun you guys Like. This is my favorite part out of everything we're talking about.

Digital Addiction in Modern Society

Ben 2:27

Yeah, favorite part out of everything we're talking about? Yeah, well, because we believe this kind of digital proclivity that our society is moving towards, or embraced, if you will, where everything's moving to digital Right. We feel like, in some ways, it's great. It's good we can do a lot more things, maybe at home and we can do it more asynchronously.

Liz 2:46

And AKA, you have more freedom. But, there's actually some things that you miss out on. There are some massive things that you miss out on.

Ben 2:55

I would imagine most of us know that going through COVID we were like well, hold on a second. Digital is great, but we kind of do need the in-person stuff. I know I enjoy in-person, the face-to-face.

Liz 3:06

The face-to-face that's right. I enjoy that. So, yeah, so, speaking of face and you're looking at my face I'm thinking about when our chiropractor saw my face in a place that he didn't ever think he would see my face.

Ben 3:20

He wasn't expecting the power of face-to-face when you don't expect it in a certain place.

Liz 3:26

Right.

Liz 3:31

And he's probably going to listen to this episode and laugh his hiney off, because that's a key word hiney yeah.

Ben 3:34

Yeah, that's a key, hiney, yeah. So you bought me a special pair of underwear.

Liz 3:38

Okay, so I bought Ben. It was Valentine's Day. I mean, what do you get a man that you love except for underwear that have your face printed on them, right?

Ben 3:48

So naturally Not just one face like the pattern. It was a pattern of Liz's faces all over my underwear. That's what she gave me for Valentine's Day. I did, I've also done Got some socks too.

Liz 3:57

I've also done socks.

Ben 3:58

Yeah.

Liz 3:58

So anyway, I gave him this pair of underwear, more of like a joke, like boxers or whatever, and the kids were roaring laughing they thought but naturally Ben doesn't let anything great go to waste, so he starts wearing these underwear. Well, I guess you were working outside. I don't know what you were doing.

Ben 4:15

I had a rougher pair of shorts on.

Liz 4:18

I think you could say yeah, and he had somehow ripped this part in the back hind side.

Ben 4:24

Yeah, in the hiney, in the hiney of his shorts.

Liz 4:27

And you went to the chiropractor.

Ben 4:29

Yeah, I went to the chiropractor that day.

Liz 4:31

Well, first of all, why in the world were you wearing those shorts to the chiropractor?

Ben 4:35

I don't know, I'm not sure.

Liz 4:38

It wasn't a date or anything like that.

Ben 4:39

So I was just like I'm just going to wear my shorts, my comfy shorts that have a hole in them.

Liz 4:42

Oh my gosh, Anyway, we not, you know, detract people, so anyway. So so he wears this pair of shorts, and I mean the chiropractor's adjusting you.

Ben 4:55

Your face down yeah, my face down butts up in the air like he's adjusting my back. And all of a sudden he looks down and he's like why do I see liz's face in your butt? It's like what is going on here? Why are you, why is Liz's face underneath?

Liz 5:10

your shorts, because he said, he saw like this eyeball looking at him and he was like, wait a second, I know that eyeball and he's like whoa. Why is Liz looking at me through your shorts?

Ben 5:20

Yeah, so anyway, that's not the face-to-face conversations that we're going to be talking about, but that is a funny story by the way.

Liz 5:25

I just have to say a plug. By the way, I just have to say a plug, you should buy your husband a pair of those short boxers.

Ben 5:30

With your face on it.

Liz 5:31

Yeah, it's pretty fun, pretty fun so all right, so that's kind of fun.

The Science Behind Screen Addiction

Ben 5:35

But let's talk about this sense of digital, I guess, addiction that we have as a society, oh boy, I mean, we could blame it on COVID, we could blame it on tech companies or social media or whatever, but I think, by and large, we can just say that our culture is moving more and more digital. It's where we spend our time, it's where we connect with people, it's just what grabs our attention. Right, and so it's the norm. It is the norm, it's the norm, and you don't hear. I mean, I guess you hear some rumblings about why it's maybe problematic, but there aren't very good solutions. I think, right, you just people express discontent with it. But like, what do we have to really use in our tool bag to combat, like digital addictions.

Ben 6:30

Well, and families too Because Specifically to families.

Liz 6:33

Right, and we're going to get into the research and all the things. That is probably going to blow everybody's hair back.

Ben 6:39

Oh, it blows mine yeah.

Liz 6:40

I mean, when we started digging into this, I remember we were riding in the car on a way back. We're listening to a book on tape, naturally. I think everybody's figured that out, that when we're in long car rides we're listening to audio books Right. But as we were listening to this information, I was getting so angry. I was like ready to throw my phone out the window because I felt so duped.

Ben 7:03

Right.

Liz 7:04

I felt so duped, Yet at the same time it's like I kind of knew these things, but I hadn't heard it or seen the research or had the conversation with anyone about it. And it's becoming more and more prevalent.

Ben 7:17

I mean you know, just in our.

Liz 7:19

I mean, the topic is, and just in our research we're seeing it. You know, there's like YouTube videos about it and there's podcasts about it, and so we're basically just going to talk about what we've discovered and how to help families.

Ben 7:30

Yeah, and again, we're not here to say drop your phone down the toilet. No, although I was ready to throw mine out the window, but again, I'm black and white.

Liz 7:39

She is, and I'm very extreme.

Liz 7:40

She goes to the extreme.

Liz 7:41

I'm very extreme.

Ben 7:43

And there's kind of a funny note back in history about a people group called the Luddites who were around during the Industrial Revolution in England, and so Ned Ludd was someone who was very against technology and specifically machines.

Liz 8:03

What a name, ned Ludd.

Ben 8:05

Ned Ludd what a name. And so he galvanized a group of people to fight this concept of technology coming in. So we're not going to be Luddites today.

Liz 8:14

We're not going to say, hey, get rid of your phones, although I probably would have been with Ned in my extremeness.

Liz 8:19

Like I'm so hot or cold, I'm a cold. There is no gray you would have joined the Luddites, I probably would have.

Ben 8:24

Yeah, no worries.

Liz 8:27

But I'm married to a techie. I know I'm catching you. I'm married to a techie. So, you're on screens all day long.

Ben 8:33

Yeah, I can't be a Luddite. I've got to figure out a balance.

Liz 8:35

Yes, you do, but I think that's good.

Ben 8:36

I think that's kind of where we want to go. So what's the problem? Anyways, right, maybe it's not a big deal. I'd like to start with A group of people called the Zizians.

Liz 8:47

And they recently made headline news. They did Not in a good way you might have heard of them. No, not in a good way.

Ben 8:52

No, you might have heard of them, but I want to start with this group of people.

Liz 8:57

Cuckoo for cuckoo pups. I'm sorry, I'm so, so sorry. Just go. Cuckoo for cuckoo pups.

Ben 9:03

So the are a cult group, yep, and they were established out in California, on the West Coast. They are a self-described group of radically rational, transhuman vegan Sith philosophers.

Liz 9:21

That is a mouthful.

Ben 9:23

That is a mouthful. How do you unpack that? Well, a lot of it you unpack with your imagination, because that's essentially where these people were drawing most of their logic from was their imagination.

Liz 9:33

Yeah.

Ben 9:34

But in real life they were social recluses who met online and in extreme corners of the Internet. A lot of them had technical proficiency and they played a lot of video games. Majority of them were male, but they considered themselves transhuman not transgender transhuman, which is interesting and essentially they tried to form a community.

Liz 10:00

Yep.

Ben 10:01

Not only online. It moved from online to in person. So they decided to come together and organize and create a utopia, which, unfortunately, a lot of these stories kind of have that as their storyline. When they did, it spiraled into paranoia, crime and eventually murder.

Liz 10:20

Yeah, they were cuckoo.

Ben 10:21

They were. They killed their landlord and then they started going after some of the parents of the group.

Liz 10:27

Yeah.

Ben 10:27

And there was one main kind of leader in it who espoused some of the main kind of doctrine of the group. Yeah, and there was one main kind of leader in it who espoused some of the main kind of doctrine of the group. But the end result is that you had a group of people who were kind of social outcasts, if you will, that found identity online and spent the majority of their time online. Right, and tried to form that same identity in person and it just completely fell apart. Right, they murdered their landlord, they killed a couple of the parents that were and they killed a boarding, a border cross, that's true, the border agent.

Liz 11:01

Yeah, yeah, they killed a border agent, yeah.

Ben 11:03

So these vegan Sith philosophers who are transhuman and radically rational?

Liz 11:13

No, they weren't, Were not.

Ben 11:14

No, they weren't, they were actually crazy, and they spent majority of their time online. In fact, they formed their identity online and then tried to bring that into the real world. There's another group of people that I'd like to throw out as well, and I'm going somewhere with this, so just hang on. Hikikomori is a Japanese word that describes a recluse.

Liz 11:40

This is crazy. You guys Hold the phone, Just keep listening. So as crazy as the Zizians were, oh yeah.

Ben 11:47

And they were caught. Actually, I think they made headlines recently. No, they weren't, they got caughtians were oh yeah, and they were caught. Actually, I think they made headlines recently.

Liz 11:50

Like last month they got caught. They were yeah.

Alarming Mental Health Statistics

Ben 11:53

So the Hikikomori has been going on for some time. It's crazy, but the Hikikomori are individuals who are extreme recluses. They have isolation for more than six months, human isolation. They often will live with a parent or a caretaker because they don't work and they don't go to school. In fact, they can't even be bothered sometimes to go out and use the restroom. They use a litter box, a human litter box.

Liz 12:22

You guys, this is nuts. We're going very extreme in this, but there's a reason in it, yeah.

Ben 12:29

And there's not from what we can tell, tell from what researchers can tell. There's no other mental health issues other than this extreme form of isolation and what are they doing the whole time then?

Liz 12:39

what are they doing with their time? What are they doing?

Ben 12:41

can you guys guess?

Liz 12:42

can you imagine? Can you guess?

Ben 12:43

they're spending it online on screens gaming completely, completely isolating themselves from physical contact.

Liz 12:52

So much so that they're not even going to the restroom. They're going to the restroom in a human litter box.

Ben 12:57

So how does this stuff happen? How does this stuff like the Zizian or the Hikikomori happen? It's not just in a bubble, it's not just in a vacuum.

Liz 13:06

Nope, it begins somewhere.

Ben 13:08

There is the ability for these people to not form traditional historical identities and instead form them through digital means. Right and I think I said all of that to say this, we read a book called the Anxious Generation, written by a he's not a clinical psychologist.

Liz 13:35

He's a research psychologist, Right right.

Ben 13:37

And it was like a red pill moment for us when we realized, wow, we've done a lot of things wrong. Right, we've done some things right, but we've done some things wrong. Right, we've done some things right, but we've done some things wrong. And the proclivities of our I guess our teens and our children to jump into the digital space so quickly and then be so addicted is what shocked us.

Liz 14:05

Right Brain science. All I've got to say is addiction, brain science, dopamine, yes. So tell them the name of the author. His name is Jonathan Haidt.

Ben 14:16

Jonathan Haidt.

Liz 14:16

Yeah, jonathan Haidt, and it's called the Anxious Generation.

Ben 14:20

The Anxious Generation. It's worth a read. I highly highly recommend it. And essentially it comes down to this we are leveraging our kids' upbringing with time spent on digital devices. The average teenager and this is from Pew Research finding in 2015, spends about seven hours a day on screens, not doing schoolwork or homework. This is seven hours of entertainment. And then, in 2022, the number of teens who reportedly using screens almost constantly was 46%. So almost half almost half of our teenagers are literally never taking a break from their screens.

Liz 15:07

All day long it's within reach all the time, all the time, every waking moment, their brains are addicted to it.

Ben 15:13

Can you just let's just stop there for a second. Can you imagine? Our childhood being that, growing up like that.

Liz 15:20

I cannot. I mean, I have memories of being thrown outside many, many days.

Ben 15:25

I'm being too loud Because we were so loud.

Liz 15:27

We were four girls plus a boy and we had lots of energy, big imaginations I mean huge. We did watch TV on Saturday mornings.

Liz 15:36

We had.

Liz 15:36

Saturday morning cartoons, and occasionally, if our homework was done by a certain time, we could turn on afternoon cartoons. But other than that, and we watched like Little House on the Prairie and things. And maybe on the weekends, when the Disney Channel came out, we would watch different things.

Ben 15:50

So you're saying you weren't a video gamer?

Liz 15:51

No, we weren't, but we did have an Atari Wow.

Liz 15:54

Yeah, I remember the.

Liz 15:55

Atari yes, and my brother had the Atari and I think we got a Nintendo at some point. But again, you know, the internet came out when I was a teenager. So, like that kind of stuff.

Ben 16:08

Yeah, yeah, it was foreign to us and I remember playing video games as a kid, but there was always a definite end. Right, and you would get bored Like it was just a it stopped.

Liz 16:17

You want to go outside and play with your friends. And then you did something else. Well, you would. You would beat the game.

Ben 16:22

Yes, yeah, you moved on.

Liz 16:23

I mean, I remember Nintendo. My cousin had and had a Nintendo and it was like the duck one with the gun. Yeah, and then of course there's Super Mario and we would beat it all the time because you learned all the little secrets and then you know it was over and we were over. It wasn't like this continual constant, never dying, going, going, going all the time.

Ben 16:42

Right right, right, right yeah.

Liz 16:46

Yeah, and there wasn't social media back then. Oh no, there wasn't, we did have slam books which I've talked about in another episode, and what my nickname was.

Liz 16:52

Oh yeah.

Liz 16:52

And I did get some DMs on my nickname, so thank you for paying attention.

Ben 16:57

That's amazing. So let's specifically talk about social media, just for a second. The way that adolescence has always kind of interfaced with local communities. According to Jonathan Hite, the author of this book has been through two different things prestige and conformity and so what he means by that is like as kids grow up and they model the behavior around them. That is conformity.

Ben 17:27

They see what's being done, they see what is normative, what is normal, and they model that behavior Right. And then there was another aspect of that, which is the prestige. And so as you saw the local community around you, you saw who had maybe the most prestige maker the baker.

Liz 17:48

Yes all of those You're watching, or the mayor of the town, or whatever, or, the mayor of the town and you're thinking that's what I want to do, that's what I want to be.

Ben 17:55

Yeah, he had influence, right, and you looked up to that person, right. That would eventually lead to apprenticeship and or could lead to apprenticeship. But that was basically the two kind of behavioral reinforcement aspects of being in a community is that you conformed, you took on the behavior of the community and you looked up to prestigious members of that community and then modeled behavior. After that. It could even be leading to apprenticeship.

Liz 18:20

Right.

Ben 18:21

So one of the things that social media does, according to Jonathan Haidt, is we trade those local sources of prestige and conformity and we switch it with what teens and adolescents are seeing in social media.

Liz 18:37

So that is what they're conforming to.

Ben 18:40

Exactly.

Liz 18:41

Right Because and these are like superstars, Right I mean, for the longest time our kids wanted to be Mr Beast, yeah. I mean, for the longest time our kids wanted to be Mr Beast. Yeah, and because I mean Mr Beast is cool, right?

Liz 18:54

Right yeah.

Liz 18:55

Now they want to be do perfect.

Ben 18:57

Sure.

Liz 18:57

Yeah, but that's very minute.

Ben 18:59

And those are tame.

Liz 19:01

Those are tame.

Ben 19:02

Influencers.

Liz 19:02

Right Influencers, right, those are on YouTube.

Ben 19:04

You guys can think of some ones that aren't tame.

Liz 19:06

Right, and those are very niche. Yes, so I know where you're going with this, so go ahead, go on.

Ben 19:20

So what the deal is is like the social media models. They reinforce behavior that becomes incentivized and popular through likes and shares, and you know how the algorithms work. I don't have to explain it to you, but the concept of adapting and conforming to behavior on social media is not always a one-to-one what we want in our kids, especially as it relates to just being in local communities and families, right there's behavior that's popular on social media because it stands out from what you can get away with in real life.

Liz 19:46

Are you thinking about when they did the bucket challenge?

Ben 19:49

Well, the bucket challenge is pretty tame, but I'm thinking of even like some crazy things where they were doing that knockout game.

Liz 19:55

Oh yeah, that was crazy.

Liz 19:55

Running up behind people and trying to hit them in the head and that's an extreme form of it.

Ben 19:59

But the concept is is like we're incentivizing behavior that is viral, Right, but we don't necessarily want it to be conformed right. We don't want our kids to take on that Just because it's viral doesn't mean it's something that we should conform to as a community, especially our teens. And then also the prestige model too the kids that are engaging in social media at a young age are seeing this and thinking, wow, that person's famous, I want to be like them, instead of how it's been for generations and generations.

Liz 20:30

Which is modeling that prestige based behavior seen in the communities Right, and what's interesting is it's really based in an algorithm.

Liz 20:39

Yeah.

Liz 20:39

Like there's probably bot accounts or bots, sure, not just like you paid for it. I mean, there's so much corruption, even in how things become viral and all that kind of stuff, and so yeah, yeah.

Ben 20:52

These kids. It's fake, right? A lot of it is A lot of it is fake, or a lot of it's overblown, or it's even behavior that just wouldn't fly in face to face.

Liz 21:02

Yeah, it would never fly like that. Like they're saying things doing things that you could not do in person. Sure, they're saying things doing things that you could not do in person. Sure, they would never do, sure.

The Value of Face-to-Face Interaction

Ben 21:09

Right. And another thing about all this is the fact that it's all about the attention right when these social media platforms are created and then driven to profit. Right. There is brain science that goes into keeping individuals as long as possible engaged in the platform People.

Liz 21:33

First of all, we need to take a deep breath. Everybody just take a deep breath.

Ben 21:37

I know it's heavy and we know we're talking fast because we're excited about it. Yeah, we're excited about it.

Liz 21:40

But if you can capture this for just a second, they are paying people to watch us and figure out how to get us addicted to social media or games To stay on the platform. To stay on the platforms. We are the product, we're the product.

Ben 21:58

Jonathan Haidt talks about a variable ratio schedule, and so in psychology, that is essentially a mechanism that reinforce, one of the most powerful mechanisms that reinforces behavior. And I meant to start out with a question. Actually I'm kind of jumping ahead. I meant to say what do slot machines, social media and video games have in common? Wow, is that like your big?

Liz 22:25

question.

Ben 22:25

That was that. Yeah, and the payoff was a variable ratio schedule. But I jumped to that. See, I'm so excited, I'm like I'm just jumping to the thing already.

Liz 22:32

You've been preparing for this for a long time. Yeah, I've been digging in for a long time, so anyways, that was the lead in.

Liz 22:38

Okay, let's talk about that slot machine, let's talk about the video games. Let's talk about social media, because you and I were talking about this before we jumped on here and just, and you know, just you think I mean I literally saw something that someone sent to me of a woman. The casino was, it was raining, stuff was falling down, there's like electricity popping, and she's sitting at.

Ben 23:02

Oh yeah, the slot machine. The slot machine. It was like a flood right. Yeah, I don't know what she? Was doing.

Liz 23:08

And I'm like, oh my gosh.

Liz 23:10

Somebody needs to send this woman this episode. But you know what? We look at that and we go gosh. It's so extreme. But how many of us are hiding in our home late at night until two in the morning doom scrolling right it's the same concept the video games.

Liz 23:24

Yeah.

Liz 23:25

I mean there are camps for people to go to to be detox, detox from their addiction, to screen.

Ben 23:33

OK, so this is real.

Liz 23:36

This is very real.

Ben 23:36

You might be thinking OK, really, guys like slot machines, how that have in common with social media or video games? Let's break it down real quick. So the concept is a variable ratio. Schedule is when you do an action over and over and you get a reward, but it's not tied in with anything specific. There is just a randomization to the behavior and the reward is what's randomized and it reinforces that behavior. So the concept in psychology is like this is one of the most powerful mechanisms to continue on a specific behavior guessing so this is this.

Ben 24:12

This is employed in social media, in games and, obviously, in slot machines, so that we will continue to come back to it. And it's been proven through uh studies with animals. It's been proven in studies with people. It's just one of the ways that our brain works and we get that little dopamine hit right when we see a like or we see someone comment on our post, and so we keep checking, and then the next time we check again was there a new like.

Liz 24:38

Was there a new stuff? Maybe not.

Ben 24:40

Okay, well then I'm going to check it again. Oh wait, there's more, there's new stuff, there's likes, there's that little reward that sometimes is there, sometimes in it, and so it forces us to continually check, to continually be engaged.

Liz 24:51

Which is anxiety? It keeps you guessing. You never have peace. Sure, You're constantly checking, checking checking, checking. Especially if you're addicted. Right Exactly.

Ben 25:00

Yeah.

Liz 25:00

It's an addiction.

Ben 25:01

Yeah, it's a form of addiction, just like a gambling addiction. The scary thing is, though, is that when we let our kids have unmitigated access to social media or immersive gaming and we can explain how that works in gaming too. It's a lot of the newer type games where there's random rewards and things and prestige models that are built into the games.

Ben 25:20

It's not just your console games from yesteryear, this is like newer stuff, where they're employing these type of variable reward schedules to get you hooked and come back to see something new. So this kind of stuff, when we're giving it to our kids, it's like telling them to go play slots and them not having the maturity to regulate themselves. That's why we're so passionate about this kind of thing.

Liz 25:41

Well, and their brains haven't developed Right, they're still developing and they're getting those grooves in their brain, those nerve paths and so and they're getting that addiction to the dopamine and tell okay.

Liz 25:54

So when they looked at brains I was gonna say you tell it but I can say when they looked at brains of 10 year olds who were gaming on screens we'll just say on screens and then they looked at crack addicts who were adults, and they looked at the crack addicts and they looked at the kids. Their brains looked the same under the microscope.

Ben 26:13

These are heavy gamers, heavy gamers, heavy gamers that are addicted.

Liz 26:15

Heavy gamers addicted, okay. And then I'm sorry I'm going a little bit off, but we've seen it in our own kids. When we took devices away, it was like rage.

Liz 26:26

Rage quitting.

Ben 26:27

Yes, holy moly, another reaction right that you would see with taking substances away from drug addicts. Right If you take games away from kids, teens, who are addicted?

Ben 26:40

Or kids or social media or phones or whatever it is, you'll get that same reaction. It's like a rage. It's them wanting to get that addictive behavior back or an addictive product back into their system. It's a dopamine and yeah. So what you're saying is like we're, we're basically playing with addictions if we allow unmitigated access. And again, hear us out. We're not saying we want everybody to throw away their phones. We want everybody to just quit social media full, full stop. Well, what we're saying? We want everybody to throw away their phones. We want everybody to just quit social media full, stop. Well, what we're saying?

Liz 27:11

is. I kind of want to, but I'm trying to. Ben keeps that pendulum in the middle. Here we go. Here comes the extreme. Sorry, you guys. The Luddite we're going to call you a Luddite from here on.

Liz 27:20

A Lizite.

Ben 27:20

Liz Lizite, luddite. So we're saying is if we're not careful, it's like sending our kids to the slot machine, as a teen thinking that they can beat this. And then at the same time, I want to stop with what you said. You said wearing those neural synapses, those grooves in our brain. That's important, because what Jonathan Haidt talks about in his book is that it's not so much that it's so bad that we do this period, it's when we do it.

Ben 27:54

When we let kids do it when their brain is still in the formative years there are neural synapses that become trimmed and there's pathways that become reduced, and that's part of growing up. It's actually we actually have more synapses when we're younger than when we're older. And what happens? Is it prunes. And so he talks about this pruning period between about, I think it's 10 to 15, where that's some of the most dangerous times to let addictive behavior become normal for our kids.

Liz 28:25

Because they cannot break it.

Ben 28:27

Because that becomes their sense of normal, yeah, and their brain it wears those grooves Because they cannot break it. Because that becomes their sense of normal, yeah, and their brain it wears those grooves.

Liz 28:33

And then you have to work on brain health, you have to work on reprogramming yeah, so then you're working against what they think is normal as an adult, to try to come out of that.

Ben 28:42

So it's really important that we set up and make sure that we've got some limiting factors in it so that we don't just play with fire in some of these addictive behaviors.

Ben 28:57

So let's just jump into some of the effects of a screen-based childhood, right, we talked about some of the ways that it can hijack your brain, but let's go into some of the studies that have been shown and where we're kind of at as a society all right own, and where we're kind of at as a society All right. And let's start with the fact that 40% of American children under 13 have created an Instagram or Facebook account.

Liz 29:18

I really made Ben look this up. When he came to me with this stat. I said now stop for just a second, and he pulled it all up. We read the article. It is so that is so intense to me.

Ben 29:28

Well, why is it intense? It's intense because you're supposed to be 13 or older to actually create accounts with these online companies.

Liz 29:38

And I think what makes me upset is there's stuff all over the place, right, and so you get into a trap of an algorithm and it keeps feeding you the junk. And Instagram doesn't know you're a kid no, no, no, it should. The junk, yeah. And Instagram doesn't know you're a kid no, no, no, you know. And it should.

Ben 29:52

It should, yeah, but our laws are set up in a way that they're so easy to get around Right. All you have to do is literally click a checkbox. I'm a web developer and you know it's very easy to do this little form Right. And to get past that form, you literally just say yeah, I self-identify as being older than 13.

Ben 30:12

40% of American children under 13 are doing this. They're getting around the safeguard that we have set up as a society, and the long-term effects of kids being on social media before age 13 is really scary. In fact, the latest research basically asserts that children who are the heaviest users of iPhones tend to be the most depressed, whereas kids who spend more time face-to-face activities, such as on sports teams or in religious communities, are the healthiest mentally. So that's just iPhone uses in general All right mentally. So that's just iPhone uses in general, all right. And then, when we start talking about social media heavy usage, like the depression rates go up even more. Yep, but what's really crazy this is the stat that got me is depression has become two and a half times more prevalent for teens age 12 through 17 since before the 2010s, and we all know what happened in the 2010s. That's when the iPhone proliferation came.

Ben 31:15

That's when social media came, became mainstream.

Liz 31:18

That's when the camera was facing Yep and the camera facing camera Facing camera, and so we just transformed as a society.

Ben 31:25

We cared a lot more about our digital appearance and our digital identity, and this led to some negative outcomes health massive, massive, and we're seeing it in just our small little world.

Liz 31:40

We are I mean, is it okay to share this part now?

Ben 31:43

yeah, I think so okay.

Liz 31:45

So I mean just recently, um, you know, we found out that um somebody in our community, uh, their daughter has been doing self harm. She's on social media and gaming all the time. I mean immediately. When we heard that, the first thing Ben and I were saying is we know why?

Ben 32:07

It's obvious to us, it might not be obvious to her parents but it's obvious to us.

Liz 32:11

But we see this individual has been in our home and we see the red flags. We also somebody that that this is very sad, but somebody that I used to babysit long, long time ago and, um, he was gaming and he gained for three or four days straight without sleep.

Liz 32:31

It's like days right and, um, he had just had a breakup with his girlfriend. Um, because he was a gamer and he gamed all the time and he was in his you know, he was young, 20 something and basically online gaming, and whomever he was talking to was this, I think, this kid up in Canada. And as they were communicating, the kid was like well, you should just take your life right he.

Ben 32:56

He was explaining about his breakup.

Liz 32:58

Yeah, and he said that and unfortunately he did Right. And now his dad is a massive advocate. He's been on TV programs, he's trying to get legislation passed in our state. Like there's all this stuff going on and it makes me want to cry.

Liz 33:14

Yeah.

Liz 33:15

And then recently.

Ben 33:17

Real recently.

Liz 33:17

Real. Recently in our community we just had a young gentleman who took his life.

Ben 33:22

He was being bullied online and in person.

Liz 33:25

And it was social media, yeah, and also gaming, sure, and I mean just unhealthy.

Ben 33:30

And he quit school. Right, he quit school, yes.

Liz 33:33

And the thing is, you guys, it's like this is our world and we have a very small. I could cry over this.

Liz 33:39

Yeah, we have a very small community, right. You know, we're not in front of the masses. Yeah, we're not a big city, no, no.

Liz 33:45

And so that's touched us. Yeah, you know.

Ben 33:49

Yeah.

Liz 33:49

And you may be aware of it, in your community or your family may be touched by something like this, and so we feel like it's an epidemic, right, and we want to sound the alarm, because there's a lot of people, who are all different places in life, that listen to this podcast. Yeah, and if you've got young kids, we really want to send a warning that there is a better way. And if you have kids that are, you know, teens like ours and you're like, ok, wait, we got to turn a corner and put on the brakes. We're going to give some practicals in a little bit, because we've had to do that in our family and we've not been perfect in this, we'll be the first ones to tell you this, but we have turned a corner and we are seeing better fruit in our family and the health, the mental health, in our kids.

Ben 34:31

Yes, yeah, 100%, and just real quick. There's two more stats 167% increase in suicide rates for girls between the ages of 10 and 14 from between 2010 and 2021. So between that timeframe there has been I'll repeat it 167 increase in suicide rates for girls, specifically For boys, it's 91%.

Ben 35:00

So it's a little better for boys, but there's still this massive jump. And if you look at the data and Jonathan Haidt has he's gone back decade over decade and he actually saw a decrease right before the 2010s and then a massive uptick. And so, yes, it's corollary, but this happened not only in the US, but in several Western nations that all got the same access to the technology, same technology, right around the same time. It's really the only thing that we can isolate to say like, hey, this event happened and now we're seeing the same thing in all these Western countries.

Liz 35:36

Yes.

Ben 35:37

Another thing is we're also seeing self-harm hospitalizations for girls ages 10 through 14 from the 2010 period to the 2021.

Liz 35:46

Right.

Ben 35:47

Increased by 188%.

Liz 35:50

Huge, almost a 200% increase. Huge.

Ben 35:52

For boys it's much smaller. It's 50% increase, but it's still non-negligible.

Liz 35:58

Increasing Right.

Liz 35:59

Yeah, that's a pretty big jump.

Liz 36:00

It's still increasing.

Ben 36:01

And it's the same timeframe and we believe it's the same issue. Right, it's this digital proclivity, it's this digital addiction, it's this digital online forming.

Liz 36:12

Right.

Ben 36:13

And it's scary. There's actual things that are happening. We've noticed it in our own kids not to this extreme, obviously, but we've seen it every time. I mean it's like even as a parent, and when you go to a restaurant or you're walking at the park or shoot. I mean we were even in. Disney World just a couple of weeks ago.

Ben 36:32

Yeah, we saw it there and seeing kids just blank out and focus on the screen and just kind of be dead to the rest of the world that they're in. There's just something that like grieves you when you see that you just think this can't be the way that we flourish as humans, right Like there's something wrong with this and the scary thing, we'll just move on real quick. The scary thing for us, too, is knowing that as parents, we model that behavior.

Liz 37:03

Yes, okay, so they learned it somewhere.

Ben 37:05

Yeah, they've got it. They've got to figure out that looking at a screen.

Liz 37:08

Are we allowed it? Are we allowed it? Yeah, Is normal somehow.

Ben 37:12

And you know. Just a little bit of research on that perspective is there was a 2014 survey so this is pretty old of 6 to 12-year-olds conducted by Highlights Magazine. So that was a magazine I used to get as a kid growing up.

Liz 37:28

We still get it, you just don't know it. Oh, we do. Yeah, it's okay.

Ben 37:31

Well, so anyways, they found that parents were often distracted when the child tries to talk to them, and the major reason why was cell phones cell phones being used In 2020,. A Pew survey found that 68% of parents say they sometimes or often feel distracted by their phones when spending time with their children.

Liz 37:56

So they're looking for the notification, they want the dopamine hit. They're not present. Yeah, I mean it could be addiction or just could be just bad hygiene.

Liz 38:03

Boredom, boredom, you know.

Ben 38:05

But kids are taking notice of parents' uses of technology. Oh yeah, so that's significant right, because, as the parents, we model the right behavior. So we can sit here and say, well, it's just a societal problem, but honestly, I think it's an us problem. I think it starts in the family, Right? We've got to have better Hygiene, hygiene.

Liz 38:26

Digital hygiene yeah.

Ben 38:31

So just a few years ago, there was a cultural anthropologist named Care Anderson and she was so, on this point, Okay, this is a pretty crazy point that Ben's about to make, so everybody take a deep breath.

Liz 38:49

Speaking of Disney World.

Ben 38:50

I know I'm going to take a drink.

Liz 38:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, take a deep breath. Take a deep breath Because, yeah, this is pretty nutso, this anthropologist.

Ben 39:00

So Disney hired Kara Anderson to conduct some research for them, and they wanted to know what most captured the attention of toddlers and infants at their theme park in Orlando.

Liz 39:13

It's crazy, crazy so.

Ben 39:16

Kara and her team set up crazy. So karen, her team set up, and after a couple hours of close observation this is her words we realized that most what most captured young children's attention wasn't disney conjured magic in the theme parks. Instead, it was their parents cell phones, especially when the parents were using them crazy. Those kids clearly understood what held their parents' attention. Yep, and they wanted it too. Cell phones were enticing action centers of their worlds. As they observed it, when parents were using their phones, they were not paying complete attention to their children. This is in Disney World y'all. This is in the happiest place of the earth, apparently.

Liz 39:57

Or you can get Mickey Mouse ice creams.

Ben 39:59

You can get the Mickey Mouse ears ice creams Everybody loves those, right, yeah? So the conclusion was if basically giving undivided attention is the first and most basic ingredient in any relationship, and it's modeled even at an early age, you can see it in kids and toddlers and children. So what's the fix for this, liz? I mean, this is a lot of heavy news, it's a lot of intense statistics, very, and don't take our word for it. I mean, go do some research.

Liz 40:28

Yeah.

Ben 40:29

I would love for you guys to go read the Anxious Generation. That is such. It was such a moment for us going through that.

Liz 40:35

How many times have you read it, Ben?

Ben 40:43

I think I've read it twice, at least twice, and then you've gone back and read yeah, then I've gone back and done some research with it, but it again, it was like our red pill moment on the matrix it was like our eyes were open, we were like holy moly and, on the attention economy thing, like realizing that the relationship that I have with social media and the attention that I give it. That is what the app is for. It's actually to get my attention so that it can be sold to the highest bidder.

Ben 41:04

So it's like I'm almost like a digital slave. I know that's a really intense word to use, but it's like, since I'm addicted to giving my attention every moment, every interaction, every checking, and every interaction, every checking and interact. Whatever that gets fed into the system, Ads get directed to me based on the attention that I'm giving it. I'm literally the product being sold to advertisers.

Liz 41:29

Exactly, you are the product.

Ben 41:31

I am the product.

Liz 41:32

Yep.

Ben 41:33

So that was pretty heavy. I was like man, we got to make some decisions. Oh, we did. We made some big decisions, we did man, we got to make some.

Liz 41:41

Oh, we did. We made some big decisions. We did, we, we turned some corners and took some phones away, and we did. And we'll get into that too.

Ben 41:44

But and I want to. I want to like not jump ahead to all of the all the safeguards that we did, but I also want to talk a little bit about what we give up when we are doing kind of this digital. This is so good.

Liz 41:58

If we can, I mean he's going to get into this obviously been very teachery in this episode. But is that a word, teachery? Sure, I made it up, okay, um, but you know, this is this part that we're about to get into is the good part. Like listen to the good part. We just gave a lot of facts. There's a lot of sad things that even my heart right now is just sad over.

Liz 42:20

Right.

Liz 42:22

But this is the part. That's the good part, yeah, and this is why we are shouting it.

Ben 42:27

This is what we're excited about.

Liz 42:28

Yeah, this is what we're excited about, but this is why we're shouting it from the rooftop.

Ben 42:32

Yes.

Liz 42:32

Because we want families, we want couples, we want humans, we want humans, we want individuals.

Ben 42:44

We want single people to get this, because if you can get this, take this red pill with a spoonful of sugar, and this is the sugar part.

Family Solutions and Digital Guardrails

Liz 42:49

But if you can take this, then it will change your life.

Ben 42:52

I think so. It literally will change your life. It's had some pretty incredible impacts just between us.

Liz 42:57

I know it's so fun. Yeah, okay, let's get into it, because this is good.

Ben 43:01

We're going to get into it. So what do you miss out when you are mostly interacting with humans on a digital level?

Liz 43:07

Your face.

Ben 43:09

Like the face that my chiropractor saw in my shorts. That was my face, Okay, Not that. So face-to-face, face-to-face interaction what do weface interaction Like? What do we give up? What were we lacking during COVID? Why was there like even during COVID there? Was anxiety rates that were spiking right Because we were missing out on in-person embodied interaction.

Liz 43:30

What is that word, Ben, that you like Synchronized?

Ben 43:33

Synchronous.

Liz 43:34

Synchronous. That's it, synchronous communication. So face to face.

Ben 43:38

So we did a little research and I read a book. A good friend of mine recommended it. What's the name of the book? The name of the book is Renovated, right, and in it the author covers brain science, about identity formation, and he also talks about theology, right, but this concept called mutual mind came up, and in psychology I think you call it intersubjectivity but mutual mind. I'll give a demonstration. When I look at my wife.

Liz 44:11

Here we go, you guys. Okay, I'm going to have to turn and look at him.

Liz 44:14

All right.

Liz 44:14

Now, this is I want here. I want you to hand me the cup of coffee, because this is what it looks like in the morning because he makes my coffee in the morning and he's like say good morning.

Ben 44:23

Good morning.

Liz 44:24

And then you'll say look, at me. I'm like yes, hi, let me take a sip of my coffee first.

Ben 44:30

And so I look at Liz in the mornings and I give it a couple seconds, give it a couple beats, and normally she gives me a smile yeah, give it a couple beats and normally she gives me a smile.

Liz 44:42

And what happens? Naturally, when I see you smile, I ask you if you brushed your teeth. No, you ruined it. Sorry, that's what we're about to kiss. Yeah, I'm just looking at you here.

Ben 44:49

Okay, okay, so what happens is your face lights up what happens to my face.

Liz 44:54

Your face lights up, my face lights up.

Ben 44:56

It's almost a subconscious thing. When we see people smile at us, the natural result is the smile, sometimes even giggle. I just did it right there. You shot me a funny face and I started giggling. Okay, what's happening there?

Liz 45:09

Can we do that again? I just love it. It's actually good and I just have to. I know Ben's going to give the breakdown of what's happening, but even we had some people come over today and there were some things that I needed to do and get ready and I was like you know, because we have an army of kids, I have to bark orders. You know, okay, you do this now, you do this, and they do it, they all do it right. But I was like in go mode and you stopped and you looked at me and you go, look at my face. And I was like this is not the time to look in your face. But then he looked at me and I looked at you and then it was like any bit of stress that I had about getting the house ready was like who cares, it just settled me. The power of mutual mind. The power of mutual mind.

Ben 45:50

So what is mutual mind? Are we just crazy wackos?

Liz 45:52

talking about this thing.

Ben 45:53

We are we just smile at each other and giggle. There's brain science. There's actually some brain science going on, all right. So this is within the last couple of decades. I think the concept's been around since the 70s or maybe in 60s.

Ben 46:07

But some of the latest findings that reinforce this concept of mutual mind or, in psychology, intersubjectivity, is really fascinating and I want to break it down real quick.

Ben 46:17

But essentially, what it means mutual mind is when we are fully present with another person and there is a shared, synchronous attention and emotional states that are happening. So brain synapses, even brain chemicals, are starting to become synchronized, and it's all happening as we look fully in each other's faces, as we notice details about what we're saying, and there's two tracks that process what's happening. There's a slow track and there's a fast track. The fast track is actually some of the more powerful and it's almost subconscious. So when I look at Liz in the face and I smile, there's almost a mirroring quality that happens and I'm not thinking to myself oh she's smiling, so I must smile. My logic center is not doing the calculations of making my face smile and reflecting her face. There's something almost subconscious happening. That's the fast track. It's when we synchronize with all the subtleties of someone's face or the voice and we're fully present, we're fully embodied, we're using our faculties.

Ben 47:33

There's a subconscious synchronization that actually works faster than our prefrontal cortex.

Liz 47:40

Right.

Ben 47:40

So this stuff happens in the amygdala and the subcortical structures. It's like I said, it's a subconscious level and it's designed so that we can even respond quickly to threats Like think about it If you see someone whose face is contorted and angry and look like they're coming at in.

Ben 48:01

it almost bypasses your prefrontal cortex, your logic center, and it's a reactionary response based on your brain processing what you see in that other person and what their emotional and their attitudinal state is towards you. So I'm saying all this to say that we don't get this fast track processing when we spend time digitally connected to one another?

Liz 48:45

No, we do not. In fact, you get the decrease of that. Right and you get depressed you get the slow track.

Ben 48:50

And you get anxiety, you get the slow track which is basically our logic center, processing responses in an asynchronous fashion. Typically. I think that's where you're going right, Right. So like an interaction online, like, let's say, I write a post to someone.

Liz 49:05

Right.

Ben 49:06

I don't know what they're thinking or feeling at that time. I'm just guessing based on the words that I'm reading on a screen. Even if they like something or share something, even if I'm able to see them in a video clip, I'm not experiencing a synchronous relationship with them.

Liz 49:23

Right.

Ben 49:24

It's after the fact.

Liz 49:25

Right.

Ben 49:25

And I'm not able to share in the moment with that person. So most of our digital interactions are asynchronous slow track processing. We miss out on this fast track in our brains. The beauty of mutual mind is that we use both of these two systems together the fast track and the slow track when we communicate and when we share experiences with one another, and so the only way you can really do that is a physical presence with someone else.

Liz 50:00

Embodied opportunities. Embodied synchronous interactions, interactions you need it, we all need it. It's so healthy. It is it's so healthy.

Ben 50:09

There's actually a feedback loop. That happens when I'm looking at Liz and I'm smiling, oh Lord, you guys.

Liz 50:14

Welcome to my world Feedback loop. And I'm smiling at Liz and I'm smiling, oh Lord, you guys. Welcome to my world.

Ben 50:17

Feedback loop and I'm smiling at her as he's been learning these things for the last couple of months.

Liz 50:20

I'm like wow. You're my experiment, Apparently he'll be like let's have a feedback loop. What the heck? My question is did you brush your teeth? You're getting nowhere near me if you didn't brush your teeth. I'm just kidding.

Ben 50:38

So, but yeah, okay. So the point is that there's a feedback loop. When we are able to share in the fast track and the slow track both processing someone's emotion and experiencing that with someone our brainwaves actually start to synchronize.

Liz 50:49

So this is really cool and it happens with women all the time. I think it does actually, it actually does.

Ben 50:54

So the role of eye contact in all this is super important. But studies have shown that using hyperscanning which I'm not even really familiar with that word, but I think what it means is they're measuring two brains simultaneously. So studies are showing that when we have eye contact with people, when we're in this mutual mind state, we start to exhibit the same brain waves, the same brain patterns in these scans. So there's like a neural synchronicity as well. So it's not, you know, it's like not just being in synchronous relationship with people physically, but actually our brains start to synchronize our brain waves, our thought patterns start to synchronize.

Ben 51:33

So this it's kind of crazy how all this happens. It's almost like we were meant to be in physical relationship.

Liz 51:40

And we're meant to look at one another. And I just want to say, since I've been Ben's experiment for the last couple of months, seriously, when he does this, so I'm just, you know, I'm just talking from my point of view, but when you do this and you say, okay, you have me look at you and everything do this and you say, okay, you have me, look at you and everything. I have felt closer to you and we've been married 20 years.

Liz 52:00

you know, in these little tiny moments throughout the day and I've been telling him, I'm like, goodness gracious, you know it, it, I'm like this needs to be in marriage books you know and I know we talk about it, but like the brain science behind it and like taking the moments to make sure that we're looking eyeball to eyeball and smiling and all that.

Ben 52:19

If we had to boil it down, would you just say that I'm giving you all of my attention?

Liz 52:24

Yes, absolutely, Because you don't have a cell phone on you, You're not looking at your computer and it's. You know it's passing in the hallway or it's in the morning it's not something I'm like literally trying to just copy your emotion.

Ben 52:35

It's just. I'm locking in, I'm giving you my full attention and it just happens naturally Right, and we've been doing this with our teens, exactly. Not even just our teenagers, but our younger kids.

Liz 52:45

And making points to have that connection with them face to face and have conversation with them and making sure. I mean it's kind of funny because when they were growing up I would always say, look in my eyes, look, you know, like when I'm giving direction and stuff.

Liz 53:03

And we had to do that with our son that was on the spectrum, because I needed to make sure he was hearing me. So I say, look here, look here. And we look in the eyes and then I would say, okay, now I need you to. You know, go brush your teeth.

Liz 53:18

But I mean how great was that? I didn't even realize I was doing brain science. But I mean, well, and sometimes it spilled over to when I would be like with children all day, and then Ben would be there. I'd be like Ben, look me in the eyes, listen to what I need you to do, you know. And he's like did you just tell me to look you in the eyes? And I'm like sorry, I've been in that mode all day. Anybody else ever do that with their husband? On accident, maybe?

Ben 53:37

she did it on purpose.

Liz 53:38

Yeah, but I'm just saying since we've been introducing this consciously with our kids. Now, these experiences when you're getting on your cell phone and when you're playing a game you're missing out on Well you're not having it number one?

Ben 53:53

No, You're not having it. So, if we're spending seven hours a day on average. Teens spending seven hours on average that's basically a full-time job daily.

Liz 54:02

It is.

Ben 54:02

On top of school, on top of homework, everything else. When is that synchronous time happening? I don't know I think we're trading our natural way to interact with individuals with digital screens.

Liz 54:19

Right.

Ben 54:20

That's the opportunity cost right. So a lot of it is like okay, we've talked about all the bad things and correlating all the mental health issues, but what does it just cost someone to spend seven hours a day on anything right?

Liz 54:34

They're giving up. What are you giving up? A lot, A lot, A lot Right and truthfully, people who are on phones constantly, maybe they're craving the relationship. I'm just thinking, even in gaming they're craving that connection, that relationship but, they're really lonely. And they don't really have anybody looking into their hearts and into their lives because they're not having this opportunity.

Ben 54:54

Yeah, they're not connecting like we should be on a deep basis. So is this mentioned anywhere in scripture?

Ben 55:02

Absolutely We've talked a lot about brain science and mutual mind and all this stuff Mutual. It might sound a little crazy, but we think it's actually written in scripture and in some of the most surprising ways, right. So in Corinthians 13, 12, this one's kind of a slam dunk, for now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face Right. So that's kind of super important, like we're made eventually to see God face to face, to know everything that can be known. To see God face to face, to know everything that can be known.

Ben 55:38

And what's really cool about the Old Testament is that there are plenty of mentions of face to face encounters, absolutely, and even the Aaronic blessing this is Aaron right. Mentions God's face.

Ben 55:54

I'll just read it real quick the Lord bless you and keep you. The Lord make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you. The Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace, His peace. So this is kind of interesting, right? We have God who, as far as we know, no man can see him face to face and live. Yet Aaron is asking for God to look upon the people of Israel right, this is the context of where it is and have his face shine upon them Favor.

Ben 56:29

His countenance be upon you. It's two mentions of that right Right right. And I think that's powerful. I think there's a lot of metaphors that we can use when describing God's face. It means his attention is upon us.

Liz 56:44

It means his blessing is upon us. His favor, yeah, his favor.

Ben 56:47

But I think, even fundamentally, having the face of God be attuned to us and us to him, there's something in that mutual mind concept, there's something in that attention. When we have the same mind of Christ right, and we are in the same mind with one another, in one accord, there's something deep that happens there.

Liz 57:09

Something wonderful.

Ben 57:10

There's an identity that's formed right we belong to the Lord and we belong to one another and it's his love.

Ben 57:17

And when we share in the character of God which I think is what is also meant by this passage when we allow God's character to shine on us and we experience his character and reflect it back to him and to others, there is such a powerful identity that is formed, and that's what that book Renovated is all about. Identity that is formed and that's what that book Renovated is all about. It's these face-to-face interactions, it's the concept of reflecting God's character and even in the midst of not having God in person, that we can interact with. But when we share his character, that's a form of that mutual mind.

Ben 57:58

Exactly, and it's just important to remember that, even as we interact with one another, we're sharing God's character as well.

Liz 58:06

Yes, absolutely, absolutely.

Ben 58:09

So let's just jump into a few times that we have done.

Liz 58:13

Different things.

Ben 58:14

Some digital detoxing.

Liz 58:16

We've done that we were not detoxing. We've done that we were not the most popular people in our house we might have done it a little extreme.

Ben 58:23

Well, it might have been Liz who was possibly leading that.

Liz 58:26

Possibly. Yes, I admit it, I'll go ahead and confess it. Just because I am black and white, like I just am, I'm like there is no gray, it's right or wrong.

Ben 58:35

So we did a digital fast it was awesome it was like a cold turkey kind of. Oh, it was cold turkey.

Liz 58:43

Yeah, it was like it was like around the time of lent, I think it was, or yeah, it was like around that time. We've done a few 40 days and there might have been some weeping and gnashing of teeth there was some definite weeping and tears, serious tears, but the fruit that came out of it was really good and and what was one of the like major things that you found? Well, we basically did cold turkey and told the kids you were getting off all screens for how long? For 40 days.

Ben 59:14

Yeah.

Liz 59:14

And um, I think the kids had a countdown until they could get back on screens. In fact, I know one did and, uh, you know, we had them turn in everything, um, and, and you know, even for myself, because at the time I, I was working my business and that was all on social media, you know just the nature of my business, which was successful, but you know there's a whole thing, and so, even for me, there was times that I turned it off, you know, and I was detoxing as well, but we didn't have any video games happening in the house and, um, we found that the kids were, um, agitated, they were um not listening, they were, you know, irritable with each other, irritable with us. There, there was all these.

Ben 59:53

It was dopamine, you know, and we were watching this addiction cycle.

Liz 59:56

Yeah, yeah, anger and um, and so we had had enough as parents and just said well, we're going to. Maybe I influenced a little bit more than the other, but I was like we're done.

Liz 1:00:07

We're done.

Liz 1:00:07

Everybody's getting off of everything, and what we said was that the only things that we would watch were the chosen, because it was coming out. So whenever the chosen first came out, this was that year that we did that. And um, and it actually ended up being the most beautiful gift that we could have ever been given because, um, on Sunday nights we would watch the chosen as a family and it was phenomenal because the kids were bored.

Liz 1:00:31

But then they got extra creative. They started doing all kinds of things. I mean unbelievable building forts. They were building forts in our living room. If you've ever followed me on social media, you know they pull out my huge pink sheet. That's ginormous, like a big balloon, and they like blew it up with blowers yeah yeah, they brought blowers inside for the leaf blowers.

Liz 1:00:54

And they were like blowing it up like a big balloon. And then they did all kinds of shops and they got the neighbors involved and it was literally them emptying their bedrooms, like their bookshelves, their toy bins and they brought it over to our house. They brought it yes, and set it up.

Ben 1:01:09

Set up shops.

Liz 1:01:10

Shops. And then they had like a currency and they had like you know, and this went on for days. Like we're talking about days, I let them do it for days because, hey, it's creative play. You know, this is great. They're not, you know. And and guess what? Our children started loving each other. There was respect, there was understanding, there was mutual mind. Um they're having these, you know, conversations with one another, looking at each other. They were laughing, they were giggling.

Liz 1:01:34

We would play games as a family and we really you know, the beginning was hard, but then, when the season was up, you know, when it was over, it was like sad because we had really brought an innocence back into our home.

Ben 1:01:48

Yes, In a way that the digital lifestyle just couldn't bring.

Liz 1:01:53

No it couldn't bring and granted. I mean we were still putting parameters on the kids playing games.

Ben 1:01:58

It wasn't like just endless, however, we weren't doing seven hours a day.

Liz 1:02:02

No. However, what we were allowing was not producing good fruit, we were not seeing happiness in our house and yeah, and so when we just pulled the plug and then when we came out of that first time because we've done other ones- since then.

Liz 1:02:18

Yeah, we've done some.

Liz 1:02:19

We put some serious like boundaries down, like you know, and I know we're going to get into that as well. But I mean we put serious boundaries down and it just like it, just like reset everybody, it's like a digital reset.

Ben 1:02:31

It did it was our own little digital detox, and again this was a hardcore like fast. Our own little digital detox, and again this was a hardcore fast.

Liz 1:02:40

And we've come up with a 30-day digital detox plan for families that we think is helpful.

Ben 1:02:43

It's not as hardcore If you want to do a fast? Great, that's awesome. We highly recommend it. But we also know that everybody's starting at a different place. We were pretty restrictive before this and so, even though we had the weeping and gnashing of teeth, it wasn't terrible. We just had to redirect some kids and was fine. Some cried more than others. If you've got teenagers that are doing seven hours a day and you try to do cold turkey, you're going to get a reaction like an addict.

Ben 1:03:07

It's like taking away crack from a crack addict. You're going to get.

Liz 1:03:11

And I have had moms call me. I mean recently, just a couple of weeks ago, I had a mom who called me and she was frantic, and this is one of the reasons why we are doing this episode, because I have had people reach out, because in our community I'm, I've shared like, hey, this is what we did and this is what we've seen, and so people are like talk to me, help me, my, this mom reached out. My team is. I just took away her device and she went ballistic.

Liz 1:03:40

Now our kids didn't really do that, but when she was telling me what happened and I thought I've heard of that happening and you know she was like what do I do? And I was like don't give it back. Like you know, I mean maybe. Yeah, you're already going through it. It's kind of like you know, don't go backwards kind of thing Right right, right Don't get back in no.

Liz 1:03:58

And I mean this mom was crying with me on the phone. She was at a loss, you know, and it just breaks my heart. So this is more, gentler, that we're talking about.

Ben 1:04:07

Yeah, yeah, doing this 30-day digital detox guide for families is going to be step-based, right. So we start with a plan, you talk about it as a family, you go through and you set guide rails.

Liz 1:04:18

Right.

Ben 1:04:19

And each day you try something different, while also practicing the concept of mutual mind as a family, and so.

Liz 1:04:26

So fun.

Ben 1:04:27

We're taking different Bible verses and we're going to highlight those every week, and the concept is to hopefully get to a place where we're prioritizing embodied connections over digital connections.

Liz 1:04:39

That's right, because they're just puff yeah Now. And we're not like our kids. We still like play the Wii together as a family and they'll jump on the switch and they'll play Smash Bros and I mean, they're having fun and we still watch movies.

Ben 1:04:51

Yeah, we still watch. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, all that stuff.

Liz 1:04:53

I mean, we're doing those things still Right, but there is a different digital hygiene, and what this is, this is helping you to reprogram your brain, yes, and reprogram your family.

Ben 1:05:03

Right.

Liz 1:05:03

The key is getting on the same page, especially as mom and dad, as mom and dad, and if you're single and find a buddy to do this with, you commit to it If you're feeling the conviction on this or you're feeling the life on it and you're like I need a change because, truthfully, doom scrolling is zombie land.

Ben 1:05:22

Yes, you're just adding to your anxiety.

Liz 1:05:24

You're just depression.

Ben 1:05:25

We're not made to have that much information.

Liz 1:05:27

No.

Ben 1:05:28

Just come through our brains at any given time.

Liz 1:05:30

We're meant to have local embodied, we're meant to have local embodied experiences and when you're scrolling it's just a dopamine hit and there's actually like there has been studies done. I know we always talk about studies, but like people go to sleep and they're scrolling, like babies sound asleep, scrolling with their finger Like it's nuts it is nuts and it's an epidemic. We've got to turn the tide and so our little piece of the world. We're doing what we can do, of course.

Liz 1:05:57

We're wanting to get the information out there, but we really want families to have families. We want to produce healthy, independent adults. That's what we want. We want them to go through and not be totally addicted all the time on their screen. Right, right.

Ben 1:06:13

We want them to be self-regulating.

Liz 1:06:15

Yeah, their screen right, right.

Ben 1:06:16

We want them to be self-regulating, and so it starts with us, right.

Liz 1:06:18

It starts with us as the model.

Ben 1:06:20

And if we're not modeling self-regulation, then it's going to be really hard for our children too. But as a family we've adopted some of these concepts of the self-regulation.

Ben 1:06:28

So let's just talk about some of the things we do, like our digital guardrails. And number one, we have to make sure that we're filtering the right kind of content. So that's primary right. Like you, just, you can't let unfiltered internet, unfiltered access, nope to the world. It's just. It's a recipe for disaster, right, it's not an if your teens are going to find something that's inappropriate or your kids, not even just your teens kids. We're talking little kids our kids found it on the bus.

Liz 1:06:56

We talked about that last episode, the school bus Right.

Ben 1:06:57

They were on the school bus in elementary school and they were exposed to some bad stuff, demonic yuck. It's just going to happen.

Liz 1:07:04

You have to have a plan for it.

Ben 1:07:06

But even as the gatekeepers of our home, the digital gatekeepers of our home we have to make sure we're setting up the right filters, the right accountability software. If you've got teens and other adults, and like we, participating in it too, so you know none of us are above it, right? I'm not above it.

Ben 1:07:23

Liz is not above it. We all need accountability and we want to make sure that that is a model behavior for our kids, so they see like, hey, mom and dad are accountable to each other. You know like I need to be accountable.

Liz 1:07:34

Everybody needs to be accountable. Well, we want them to imprint on us. We want these kids imprinting on us and we want them looking at us as the prestige in this area.

Ben 1:07:42

That's right.

Liz 1:07:43

I mean, you guys are your kids' heroes. Yeah, that's true At the end of the day, your kids. They're looking to you as their heroes.

Liz 1:07:51

That's very true.

Liz 1:07:51

And you can do this, parents.

Ben 1:07:58

Yeah, you can. You can do it. Ask the lord to help you and he will. He's so good, he's so good. Digital filters accountability software. We decided in our hearts that 16 is the age that we will give smartphones so that's, that's old.

Finding Balance and Spiritual Connection

Liz 1:08:09

We were 13. And when the kids turned 13, oh, it was a disaster, because they were becoming addicted to their phones it was like giving them a slot machine and expecting them to self-regulate? They weren't, and they, and, and we did it with the, with the idea that, okay, they're in middle school you know, they're going into high school tell them what bria came home and told you in elementary

Liz 1:08:30

school that she was the only one in her class yeah, she was the only one in her class one of three fifth graders who did, and her whole grade that did not have a phone.

Ben 1:08:40

So one of three in the entire grade that didn't have a phone.

Liz 1:08:45

I think it was eight fifth grade classes.

Ben 1:08:47

That's nuts we're giving Hundreds of kids. We're just giving phones to our kids. I don't know. It's hard.

Liz 1:08:54

Okay, so we were saying 13,. Back to us, we were saying 13. And then you know, we started seeing that, okay, these kids have like underlying addictions, like we're getting some attitudes.

Liz 1:09:04

Yes, we started seeing some behavior modifications yeah, some stuff.

Ben 1:09:13

And it's like whoa, whoa, whoa whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa I was.

Liz 1:09:17

You know, we had our last son that got his phone at 13. And then we started discovering all this stuff that we're talking about and we just took it away.

Ben 1:09:25

We're like this is like okay, sorry, buddy, yeah, he lost it because he lost it because he did.

Liz 1:09:31

I forget what it was. I think he was on it when he wasn't supposed to be or something like that. And so you know we don't really play with that. If you you. You break those kinds of rules. It's over, because obviously they don't have the maturity Right.

Ben 1:09:43

Yes.

Liz 1:09:43

So anyway, we took it away and then we dug into all this stuff and he's never getting it back, like he will never get it back.

Ben 1:09:49

He'll get it back.

Liz 1:09:57

It's, but the ones that are behind him were like really Great. So they're like you mean, when I turn 13, I can't get a phone. We're like, nope, you're going to have to wait until you're 16. Yeah, because and you know what the kids are so much happier.

Ben 1:10:05

Yes, they really are. They are way happier. Our house is more peaceful. Our kid, who we did, take the phone away.

Liz 1:10:10

Yes, we saw a mat in him, and he is a delightful kid, I mean he's still a teenager and a big puppy.

Ben 1:10:17

I got my issues too, he's definitely a pan of brownies right now. So we decided no smartphones until 16. We felt like that was an intense but very intentional decision that we made as a family, as Liz and I decided, and so far we've seen some pretty awesome results from that.

Ben 1:10:38

We've also decided no social media until our kids are out of the house. That's an extreme. We realize that that's an extreme. But we also realize that social media has extreme mental health effects on teens. There's no other way to cut it. You can do all the research you want. There is a negative mental health association with every hour I think this is one of the stats I didn't get to Every hour that you add to your daily consumption of social media is a 13% increase. I'm sorry, a 13% decrease in mental health specifically anxiety and depression.

Liz 1:11:13

Right, and we have seen that.

Liz 1:11:15

And that's specifically for teens Right, specifically for teens, and we have seen that and that's specifically for teens Right.

Liz 1:11:17

Specifically for teens, and we've seen that and so we just made that decision. And you know what? Our kids are fine, they're happy, they have full lives, they have friends Right, they're fine, they're totally fine, they're not Luddites, they're not. Luddites Right, they're fine, they're really fine.

Liz 1:11:33

I mean, we just had a daughter who went away on a beach weekend and she had a blast and they, oh my gosh, and on this beach weekend that she went on, they had rules about cell phones and they had blocked times that you were not allowed to pick up a phone, and then they had times that you could, so you could check in with your parents or whatever. But I mean the world, I mean the places are getting it Like there's schools that are getting it Teachers.

Liz 1:11:59

Places are getting it. There's schools that are getting it. Teachers, teachers are getting it. If you have any question about what?

Ben 1:12:02

we're talking about here. Go ask a teacher in a public school if smartphones are good for Americans' adolescence.

Liz 1:12:07

Nope, they'll say. Nope, you'll find some interesting perspective.

Ben 1:12:10

Nope, nope. The last thing that we do as a family is a digital Sabbath.

Liz 1:12:14

Oh yeah, we love this one.

Ben 1:12:17

So we take. Sunday off from screens and just as a family, we just say, hey, no screens, and that's more than just smartphones. That's like you know any anything yeah and we try to prioritize time with one another, time outdoors doing other activities playing games yeah, board games, yeah, we try to do things like that.

Ben 1:12:33

Those are those are our guardrails, right, right. So digital filters, accountability software, no smartphones until 16, social media when you're out of the house and digital Sabbath we realize those are extremes and that's pretty intense for counterculture even you could say that. So that's why we focused on this digital detox as a family, this detox guide, this 30-day guide to kind of help you find your own guardrails as a family. This detox guide, this 30-day guide to kind of help you find your own guardrails as a family.

Liz 1:12:59

Right, what's good for your family, your identity, yeah, and I want to say too, because you're saying, smartphones at 16. So we recognize that there are families where kids are late at night doing sports or dance or whatever. And there was a season that we had our kids that had watches.

Ben 1:13:15

The watches yes, yeah, where they could only call like five numbers or whatever you know.

Liz 1:13:17

and there was a season that we had our kids that had watches. The watches, yes.

Liz 1:13:19

Yeah, where they could.

Liz 1:13:19

You know, they could only call like five numbers or whatever.

Liz 1:13:21

Sure, flip phones yeah, get a flip phone. Get a flip phone, yep.

Liz 1:13:23

The thing is, is that it's the availability to the internet, yes, and to apps? The apps, yep, and so, and when you get some games on there, those kids are just a little nutso on the games, you know, and it's, it's a addiction because especially well it's a slot machine, and especially some of these games where they have to keep feeding something or like keep you know they're attacked overnight and then they go back in and they look at it and their minds are always on that, and that is not healthy.

Ben 1:13:50

No especially at that age.

Liz 1:13:51

Not healthy because it's the formative year still. I mean their frontal lobe is not even fully developed until 25.

Ben 1:13:58

Yep, yep, it's crazy. So yeah, all this to say those are our digital guardrails. We have this detox guide. We'll put the link in the show notes. We'd love for you guys to get on there and try it as a family for 30 days. As an individual, but it's really about deprioritizing digital connections, reprioritizing your embodied connections with people, and then finding out kind of like what makes sense for you as an individual, as a family. What can you do to bring kind of those guardrails back into focus? And then, lastly, I think the thing that we want to leave everybody with is just this concept of mutual mind with your creator. We believe you were created in the image of God.

Liz 1:14:38

Yes, we do. What does that?

Ben 1:14:39

mean? What does it mean to be created in the image of God? To a God that you can't see, right? That seems counterintuitive. We think it means you were created with God's character in mind. That is your optimal way that you operate as a human, when you reflect his character and you're able to see that in others, and that's our primary mode of operation. That's the way that we fully become alive as humans when we reflect his character when we take on his image.

Ben 1:15:07

What makes God God? So that's what we're talking about. When you have mutual mind with God, it's reflecting his character, it's living in his love and it's experiencing that with other people. Right In Matthew 25, god talks about doing things as unto him. When you do that to the least of these, my brothers, right? And so it's that concept of loving God through loving other people and those loving interactions, that mutual mind with people around you done in the character of God, I believe is a beautiful thing, because it's not only loving him. That mutual mind with people around you done in the character of God, I believe is a beautiful thing because it's not only loving him, it's loving others, right, and there's just talk about a feedback loop. That's amazing. When you're living fully alive like that, it's just a special way to be human.

Liz 1:15:51

There's no other feeling. It's the first and second commandment. It is. That's what it is. It's the first and second commandment.

Ben 1:15:57

And another way to have mutual mind this is one that I've been trying recently is really to meditate on God's character and his emotions towards you. So it's like slowing down and feeling God's thoughts, feeling God's character as it relates to you and reflecting that back to him and then that's kind of another feedback loop, right.

Ben 1:16:18

You feel a surge of emotion, you just feel the love of the Lord, and then it goes right back to him, him loving you, you loving him. It's just like boom, boom, boom, boom. It's that feedback loop and that's really fun too, just to meditate on God's character, what his thoughts are towards you. Do a study in the. Old Testament in the New Testament. What is God like? What is his character, what are his thoughts towards you?

Liz 1:16:42

That's a fascinating journey to go on, and I guarantee you, you will find some mutual mind with the Lord, you will Absolutely, absolutely, wow, ben, what an episode.

Liz 1:16:52

What an episode.

Liz 1:16:53

We've been working on this and talking about this for months yeah. And this is actually one of the main reasons why we started our podcast. Our podcast is because we, like we said at the beginning, we just feel so strongly about this and it's basically an epidemic and we want families to thrive.

Liz 1:17:10

We do.

Liz 1:17:10

We want people to be in healthy relationships, connecting and having embodied experiences, and we know that we live in a world that's a digital age, but we don't want it controlling us.

Ben 1:17:24

We don't. We want to control it.

Liz 1:17:25

We want to control it. And when you get into the brain science and when you get into finding out that they're paying behavioral scientists to study us, to figure out how to get us addicted, to study us to figure out how to get us addicted, that's what made me so mad.

Ben 1:17:37

I felt so duped.

Liz 1:17:39

It felt so duped, and then also, too, just the beauty of, like what you're reading about, his face, the Lord's face, shining towards us, and that he desires that face-to-face time with us because we have a real relationship with him right. And so just the beauty of how that has been established since the foundations of the earth, but then how it's coming and being usurped.

Ben 1:18:00

You know and.

Liz 1:18:02

I just I think what hurts me the most is like we will go out to dinner and we'll sit down and there'll be a couple sitting there and they're on their phones the entire time. And it's like they're on an expensive dinner.

Ben 1:18:13

Yeah, they're paying hundreds of dollars to be there, hundreds of dollars Just to be on their phone.

Liz 1:18:17

And so you know, we have to be intentional with what we're doing right we have to be intentional and we're not saying just flush social media down the toilet, although if you want to and you're like me, that's okay, I understand. I mean I was off social media, I think last year, for like what was it? Six, seven months?

Liz 1:18:32

straight.

Liz 1:18:33

I got off everything because I was just like I can't.

Ben 1:18:36

Liz the Luddite.

Liz 1:18:36

Yes, I was a Luddite, I know, but it was so good for me, but I needed it. I needed the time off and I needed the time away. Yeah, I was detoxing from it. But what I was going to say, too, is that we have to be intentional. It's not just either we let it happen to us or we happen to it, and we need to turn the tide and we need to get involved and get in the fight.

Liz 1:18:58

And.

Liz 1:18:58

I know parents. I just want to say this is no condemnation, because I have been there and I have done that. But you know, sometimes it's just easier to turn on a movie, Sometimes it's just easier to give our kids an iPad or give them the phone, and there are times that, yes, you do need to do that. You may be in the doctor's office and it's like your kids are melting down and you really need to hear what the doctor's saying, and so you give them the iPad, but you've been wrangling them for the last 30 minutes and it's okay, you know. I mean there are times like when I was newly pregnant and I had lots of kids and I was exhausted and I would turn on the TV and I, because I was newly pregnant, I pass out for two hours. I wake up and they've been watching VeggieTales for two hours and I'm like did I lose?

Liz 1:19:39

it.

Liz 1:19:39

Yeah, what happened? I mean, the doors were locked and all the things, and so there's ebbs and flows. So no condemnation, you guys.

Ben 1:19:45

No condemnation.

Liz 1:19:47

How am I saying that?

Ben 1:19:48

Condemnation.

Liz 1:19:49

Yeah, I'm saying it right. Okay, I'm like it sounds weird when I say it. Condensation no condensation, no condensation. But in all seriousness, we want you to feel empowered that you can do it. We want you to feel like I've got this, even the little steps. Even the little steps. And so with this 30-day plan that we're offering you, I mean, then we'll put a link in there and you just click on it and then we'll email it to you, because that's how we have to do it.

Ben 1:20:14

Yeah, we just need an email address, and then you can get access to it it's completely free. We're not asking for anything besides just an email address, but yeah we think it's going to be super helpful to kind of get you on that journey of being able to detox as a family or as an individual and then also prioritize embodied connections, like getting back to that as our foundation, and being intentional in it, that's the key is being intentional and we just want freedom.

Liz 1:20:39

I think that is our banner, is we want freedom because I know the traps. We have seen it in our family I've felt it in my life. You've felt it in your life.

Ben 1:20:47

Oh man, I've been there.

Liz 1:20:49

I've been in the trap, we've been there. Yeah, I mean, you know it was the Lord that you had to give it up. Now you did do cold turkey.

Ben 1:20:59

I did cold turkey.

Liz 1:21:01

Oh man, maybe I'm a Luddite. I married one, yes, but you know, I mean I was newly pregnant with our first, and then of course, I was sleeping because I was always tired all the time and you filled the time very easily.

Ben 1:21:13

Oh yeah, lots of games.

Liz 1:21:15

Yeah, lots of games, yeah, lots of games with buddies and all that stuff. But I'm so thankful that you did feel the conviction from the Lord, because if you didn't, I don't know where our family would be today.

Liz 1:21:25

I don't know where our marriage would be today.

Liz 1:21:27

We definitely wouldn't be having embodied conversations like we are, but we just want to say, like you can do it, the Holy Spirit is going to help you, the Lord is going to help you, and there is going to be fruit on the other side. And, just like with anything, it feels icky maybe in the beginning, but it's so healthy. It is so healthy and you will be rewriting your brain.

Ben 1:21:49

Yes, your brain is going to be rewriting. There's things that you'll be doing that are going to be intense, like it's having to learn new skills sometimes, especially if you're teens, right, or you grew up in the generation of the first smartphone generation. And this is just normal behavior. And seven hours a day. You've been doing that for years. Right Like it takes work to get out of that.

Ben 1:22:12

Those worn down ruts in your brain that say that is normal behavior and that's what I'm used to as normal. Like that takes a lot of work but it's not impossible.

Liz 1:22:22

It isn't impossible and there are testimonies of people who've walked out of that. I mean shoot. They have detox for gamers and for social addiction.

Ben 1:22:29

This is becoming a thing.

Liz 1:22:31

People are paying money to go. I just saw something the other day. It was like a documentary and people were paying like tens of thousands of dollars to put their phones locked up and they went to like this ranch, or whatever.

Episode Wrap-Up and Resources

Liz 1:22:47

Yeah, like a retreat kind of thing, and they were basically having in-body experiences. They were swimming, they were playing, they were doing all the things and they were paying all this money. So we're trying to help you save money. That's what we're doing. We're trying to help you save money and, uh, and give you the tools you know cause you can do it. Greater is he that is in us than he that is in the world and, and you know, if he is for us, you can be against us, and the Lord is for you, he is for your family and you know what. Maybe you just stumbled upon this because you're like trying to figure out information and figure some things out, and so kudos to you.

Ben 1:23:20

Kudos to you so.

Liz 1:23:22

I think that wraps it up. Is there anything else? Ben, no, I think we got it all out. What All?

Liz 1:23:27

right. Well, thank you for being a part of our One Blessed Mess today. You know, this really is a One Blessed Mess. I mean, we're being honest and open with you guys, but don't forget to subscribe, like and share heart all the ways that, however, you're listening to this and share this with somebody that you think would benefit from it. Like it may be a family member, it could be a child, your spouse, a pastor, I don't know.

Liz 1:23:52

There are other resources that are out there you know that you could go to, but definitely check out the Anxious Generation. So if you want some of the information, just scroll down and go ahead and click the link and you can get the PDF that we'll have for you, the guide for 30 days. And with all that being said, we want to say until next time, embrace your beautiful mess, because if our mess can be blessed, then what Ben?

Ben 1:24:21

Then we know so can yours.

Liz 1:24:23

So can yours.