Liz: 0:11

Welcome to our One Blessed Mess. This is Ben and Liz, and we're here telling our story of how we raised six kids that we had in eight years, managing a entrepreneurial home with two businesses, homeschooling, and currently we are raising four teenagers plus seven chickens and two dogs to keep it interesting. But you know what? You guys are adding some goats. We're about to add some goats. So we've got all the blessed mess going on in our home. It is happening and we've got an exciting topic to talk about today and I just want to say getting this podcast going has been fun, but getting this episode going today has been real fun. We've had all kinds of things. We walked into the studio and our sign fell down.

Ben: 0:54

It broke down. It broke down. Not only did it fall down, it just broke in two pieces and we had to hot glue that sucker back together.

Liz: 1:02

It's a prayer and a miracle that that's staying up there. And then also the lamp fell because we were fixing that and the lamp fell over and the light bulb broke.

Ben: 1:10

And we've already tried to do this episode once or twice to begin with. So it's just like one thing after another. So we feel like maybe it's an important topic. I don't know.

Liz: 1:18

It must be important. Ben looked at me, goes what is up with our topic? I said I don't know, but we should pray. So we've prayed, we're prayed we've prayed.

Ben: 1:31

We're prepared. We prayed up. Yeah, we are prayed up but uh, yeah, it's a it is a kind of an intense topic, it is. You know, we like to keep things, you know, fun, um, but this one, this one's hard to talk about because it involves ourselves and it involves our own self-righteousness, but I think at the end there's really a positive light I agree, you know, but we're gonna keep it fun today too still like we have some stories and some things that are.

Liz: 1:50

Agree, but we're going to keep it fun today. Still, we have some stories and some things that are applicable to what we're talking about, because when Ben and I were talking about this subject, I said honey, this is intense. Anytime we're talking about ourself is intense, self-righteousness, all right. So what exactly are we talking about?

Ben: 2:05

Well, we're going to talk about our self-righteousness, but in the context of Luke 18, 10 through 14. Yep, and so I'll just read it real quick and maybe I'll even summarize it. So Jesus is talking to a group of people that consider themselves righteous, and he gives them an example. He says two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee, one a tax collector.

Ben: 2:27

The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I get, but the tax collector, standing far off, he wouldn't even lift up his eyes to heaven, but instead he beat his breast, breast saying God, be merciful to me, a sinner, I tell you. This man went down to his house justified. This is Jesus speaking, rather than the other, For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted. And I think that's the key is like how do we see ourselves right? Do we see ourselves in need of mercy? Do we see ourselves in that humble position of knowing our own limits, knowing our own depravity?

Liz: 3:15

Or do we see?

Ben: 3:16

ourselves like the Pharisee who says well, at least I'm not like the other guy.

Liz: 3:22

Well, that actually makes me think of a story. That guy, that guy. So we love Brant Hanson, so we'll probably be talking about him in this episode. But I remember when we needed a new dishwasher and this is when we moved into this house, which we love, our home, and I think it was the original dishwasher because it was a piece of work, and when you have a family as large as mine, as large as ours, we have to run a dishwasher like often, yeah, often, and so, anyway, the dishwasher wasn't really cleaning the plates too well, and so, and then we also had an issue with our garbage disposal, and so the handyman that I married, aka Ben, he's like oh, I can fix that garbage disposal, no big deal. So he does, he fixes the garbage disposal and it's working.

Ben: 4:13

All of a sudden, we think it's working.

Liz: 4:14

We think it's working, All of a sudden the dishwasher completely stops. So we went from one massive Like it wouldn't even run. No, it wouldn't even run. I was like holy moly. So I'm secretly praising God because I hate our dishwasher. I've had it. I'm like it needs to go to dishwasher heaven or hell, whichever, and anyway it just needs to be out of my house.

Ben: 4:34

Was that dishwasher a Pharisee or a tax collector? It was definitely a Pharisee. It was a Pharisee.

Liz: 4:38

Okay, so we go to, I think, best Buy, and I am loving finding a new dishwasher.

Liz: 4:45

We got a top rack that comes out, so there's like three racks and all these features, and I'm like, let's go, let's go. Okay, so we get a new dishwasher. It takes a while for them to come and bring it in. Well, they bring in the new one. They do like one little simple test of like running the water through it and they leave. Well, I go to run a load and it will not work at all, will not work. It stops working, just like the other one did. Yeah, and I'm like holy moly. So I call they, send this other guy that came out.

Liz: 5:19

He was like this handy, dandy man who has been apparently doing dishwashers and appliances for a really long time, because he was like there's no way. Oh, and he was the one who installed it. He's like, I know it works, it's brand new. And I'm like, well, it's not working. And he tried it, it wouldn't work. So he gets down in there and he's figuring it all out and then he goes. So is that a new garbage disposal? And I said, yes, he goes. Well, the idiot that put it in there installed it incorrectly and didn't flip the one switch or whatever it is. I don't know.

Ben: 5:47

It was a little cap that needed to come off, yeah.

Liz: 5:49

Well, it's a flux capacitor.

Ben: 5:51

I'm sure.

Liz: 5:52

So anyway, he didn't take care of it. And he's like and I don't know who that guy is, but he is an idiot, Don't ever hire him again. And I'm like yes, sir. Yeah, absolutely so. Anyway, he takes the cap, he does the thing I don't know, and the dishwasher has been working ever since. But what was funny is this guy was just like automatically like this.

Ben: 6:15

Person is an idiot.

Liz: 6:16

Assume the worst and I'm like dude, did you ever make a mistake?

Ben: 6:22

Have you ever made a mistake? Yeah, yeah, I have, but I was too maybe self-righteous to admit it was me. That was the idiot that installed it incorrectly.

Liz: 6:32

It was you, and I came and found you because you were in a meeting with work and I was like, hey, so did you know about this thing that you have to do? And that's why it wasn't working. And so we had gone for a couple of weeks without a dishwasher and then Ben turns to me and he says, oh, we didn't need to get a new dishwasher.

Ben: 6:47

I was like, nope, the Lord heard my prayer says, oh, we didn't need to get a new dishwasher. I was like, nope, the Lord heard my prayer.

Liz: 6:51

I think it was wise that you didn't fix it correctly. So anyway, that's our story Some self-righteousness on both parts.

Ben: 6:59

Both parts, oh yeah, yeah, for sure, and I think a lot of people would say they identify with the tax collector right, they identify as the center center.

Liz: 7:09

But we did a little research into some studies and unfortunately that's not the case most people inflate their own sense of righteousness yes, and this is a little intense, as ben is going to go through this because when he was finding this research and he's reading it to me, I was like, oh gosh, so try to go through it quickly, because it's so painful. All right, I'm gonna go through. Yeah it because it's so painful. All right, I'm going to go through yeah.

Ben: 7:29

Quickly, it is painful. So we have three studies here. One of them is back in 1981. So it's a little older, but they did a survey regarding how well you rate yourself as a driver.

Liz: 7:42

And I asked him. I said who do they interview? Okay, keep going, Just stop, Just go.

Ben: 7:53

Basically the short of it. We won't go into the details, but the short of it is that 93% of drivers rate themselves above average. So statistically that's impossible to be correct. I mean, there's a very rare chance that that could be correct if the worst people are really really, really bad. But yeah, we over inflate our concept of being able to drive.

Liz: 8:13

I think I'm a good driver.

Ben: 8:15

Well.

Liz: 8:16

I'm in the above average.

Ben: 8:17

Are you in the 93% above average?

Liz: 8:19

93%. Just don't ask our kids Especially the ones that are learning to drive right now. Oh, my lord Anyway.

Ben: 8:26

So that's kind of funny, right, right, right, yeah. So this and that one is by Ola and Svensson, and the second one is revolved around this concept of self-enhancement Right? This one's really interesting. I tried, and I tried to figure out exactly how they rated this concept of irrational versus rational judgment when it comes to our own morality. Okay, but it's very difficult to understand all the metrics. However, the takeaway is that 90% of participants in this study used irrational behavior and how they justified their own morality versus the morality of others.

Liz: 9:07

Yes.

Ben: 9:08

So the takeaway is that when we consider ourselves and we judge ourselves, we're very irrational in how we rate ourselves morally, right To the point where 90% of us do it right Like that's crazy. So this is a 2017 study, so definitely newer. Tappan and McKay Social Psychology and Personality Go look that up. Go get into the details of that. If you want to nerd out, go look it up.

Liz: 9:35

If not just listen to us.

Ben: 9:37

You're fine. The short of it is we're very irrational when it comes to judging our own morality.

Liz: 9:41

No, not on social media, wow.

Ben: 9:48

No, Okay. And then this last one here. This was a 2000 study, Epley and Dunning. They studied how likely we were to do good and then we would rate ourselves or estimate ourselves how likely we would do good in the future, and basically we have a doubling effect. So we almost double the amount in our minds that we would do good versus what we actually do.

Ben: 10:15

So all three of these studies just kind of show that we have this propensity to inflate our sense of self when it comes to our own capabilities, our own morality, and there's tons of other studies out there. These are just three that I cherry picked, but there's a bunch of them out there that all reinforce the same concept of like this self-enhancement effect. And there's tons of other studies out there these are just three that I cherry picked, but there's a bunch of them out there that all reinforce the same concept of like this self-enhancement effect.

Liz: 10:35

Right.

Ben: 10:35

Where we give ourselves the benefit of the doubt or even the benefit beyond doubt, and then, when it comes to others, we're very critical.

Liz: 10:44

Oh, keep moving on, just keep going so let's just do a thought experiment real quick. Okay, okay. So I have to think, you have to think. Let me take another sip of coffee.

Ben: 10:55

And maybe you could even close your eyes so you're not distracted. But just ask yourself this question Are you a good person? So what comes to mind, right, do I?

Liz: 11:07

have to answer, I mean, okay, keep going, we'll just let our audience do that right, okay.

Ben: 11:14

And I've done it several times and I always think, well, okay, I'm pretty good because I don't do this and I don't do that, and it's almost natural to kind of like do the checklist comparison.

Liz: 11:26

Like I'm not lying, I'm not stealing, yeah, yeah. Like I'm not lying, I'm not stealing, yeah yeah.

Ben: 11:29

Or like, well, I'm not like the prisoners, or I'm not like these people, or it's just natural to do that mental checklist, and especially when it comes to the concept of our own morality, our own goodness, or our own worth, and so this is kind of intense, because the Bible and especially I believe Jesus is teaching basically tells us that we aren't good.

Liz: 11:51

Right.

Ben: 11:53

And when we get in touch with that sense of knowing that we're not good deep down inside, I think it frees us up, right, it frees us up to be humble, primarily, and then we don't have to play this judgment game where it's like, well, at least we're not like that guy who does this thing.

Liz: 12:10

You mean the person who fixed the garbage disposal.

Ben: 12:14

At least I'm not like that idiot who didn't install it right.

Liz: 12:17

Said you were an idiot too, which is funny. Okay, keep going.

Ben: 12:20

So this is what's kind of important about this whole thing is how Jesus frames it, right. So let's just do a few little scripture references about what Jesus thinks about our inherent goodness or this concept of being good, right? So Mark 10, 17,. As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life? Jesus says to him why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.

Ben: 12:48

Yep, that's a really confusing verse because here you have Jesus basically saying don't call me good. Or why are you calling me good? Right, and this could be multifaceted. It could be the fact that he's, you know, underlying kind of the fact that he is God, but I also think it's a little deeper. I think it's he's not wanting to equate humanity with good, even the form of humanity that he took on. He's sinless, yes, right, but there's only one good source, and that's God, the father.

Liz: 13:16

God, the father, abba, God, papa God.

Ben: 13:19

And so it's just really interesting that he's stressing that point. And then again in Matthew 7, 11, we kind of see a similar thing. If you, then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more your father, who is in heaven, give good things to those who ask him.

Liz: 13:34

Love that verse, one of my favorites, especially as a parent.

Ben: 13:40

It's kind of intense that he kind of slips that in there, you who are evil right and we kind of like gloss over that and think about oh yeah, it's the gift giving thing.

Liz: 13:50

And no, you know, but it's not.

Ben: 13:52

There's this point that I believe God's trying to make we're all evil.

Liz: 13:56

Yes.

Ben: 13:56

Sorry, jesus is trying to make. We're all evil and I don't think we can just gloss over that. I think we have to embrace that, to know that, you know, we, we have this thing, we have this problem, the condition of our hearts.

Liz: 14:10

Yeah, the human condition, the human condition.

Ben: 14:13

It's the human condition and he understands that. Yes, he understands that. I think we need to remember that he understands that.

Liz: 14:17

Of course, we don't always understand that because we're constantly comparing ourselves to others. Yes, so, yeah, well, I like what it says in Jeremiah 79, the heart is deceitful, above all things, and desperately sick. Who can understand it? I know my heart is.

Ben: 14:33

Yes, yeah and yeah again. These Old Testament passages are really key as well, because I feel like they've already set a foundation. Jesus is just building on top of that. What about? Even in Psalms?

Liz: 14:46

Oh, I love Psalms. Okay, I'll read this one, psalm 14, two through three. The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside together and they have become corrupt. There is none who does a good, not even one, so just pressing.

Ben: 15:06

Not even one, I know. But here's the good news about that right, if we can come to grips with the fact that we're not good.

Liz: 15:14

I know.

Ben: 15:15

Where does it leave us? Well, it leaves us in need of something.

Liz: 15:18

Yeah, and it keeps us humble.

Ben: 15:19

Exactly, yeah, it needs us. Well, it means that we need a savior.

Liz: 15:24

Right, I know I need a savior every day.

Ben: 15:26

Even when we come to faith, we have to continually keep that posture of knowing we need Jesus. Yeah, it's not all said and done. We still have the propensity to sin, even as a believer.

Liz: 15:38

Right, right, and so every day, every day, yeah, and his mercies are new.

Ben: 15:42

What? Every morning? Every morning, yeah, and so we have to tap into that. Yeah, and so we have to tap into that. So, like what are some common signs that we've let that Pharisee mindset kind of take root in our thoughts or in our life? Maybe we can go through some of those practical things.

Liz: 16:00

Okay, like the comparison-based spirituality.

Ben: 16:04

Exactly.

Liz: 16:04

Okay, what does that mean, ben? It's in our notes.

Ben: 16:07

Well, basically go back to what the Pharisee was doing.

Liz: 16:11

Remember he was saying at least, I'm not like these. Yeah, I'm not like them, I fast, I give.

Ben: 16:16

Right, yep, at least I'm not like.

Liz: 16:20

I go to church every Sunday.

Ben: 16:21

If your prayer before the Lord, or if your posture before the Lord starts with at least, I'm not like posture before the Lord starts with.

Liz: 16:29

at least, I'm not like yeah, maybe you need to check yourself. Well, and I'm just thinking, you know, in today's time, I mean back then they were going to the temple on the Sabbath, which was Saturday, friday into Saturday. But you know, here we are. It's like, well, I go to church. I tithe, you know, and we see somebody else and we're like they are far and really far from what we would consider the perfect Christian, when really they're the closest because their hearts are so broken. And we've witnessed that. We've witnessed that.

Ben: 17:01

Yeah, it's like there's this scale, right, and it's not based on your own self, like morality or your sense of self-morality. It's actually based almost on the opposite it's your ability to recognize your own depravity exactly, and that leads us, and it can lead us, to a place of humility. I mean, that's where it has to go in order for it to to come to this place that I believe jesus is wanting us to get to right which is our need of him right?

Ben: 17:28

if we can recognize our need of him, that's what ultimately justifies him.

Liz: 17:32

Well, he's close to the brokenhearted.

Ben: 17:34

He is.

Liz: 17:35

That's what it says in his word, yeah, and so I just want to encourage anybody who's listening. If you are brokenhearted, the Lord is close to you.

Ben: 17:43

Oh man, I mean.

Liz: 17:43

I had one of the hardest years of my life last year. Yes, one of the hardest years of my life. Last year, yes, and he was so close I could cry. He was so close and so relational, still so relational, but he's a good father Right and in my time of brokenness and just all the things that I walked through and we've walked through, he has been dear and near and so, probably from the outside, people would have been thinking different, but only he sees it Right.

Liz: 18:09

And so you know, probably from the outside people would have been thinking different, but only he sees it.

Ben: 18:12

Right, yeah, and it's only when you're in that spot do you really catch his ear like you would right, exactly. If we're thinking, oh, we've got it kind of put together, or at least I'm not like that guy.

Liz: 18:25

Well listen, I am a hot mess and I will be the first one to tell you. I, that guy. Well, listen, I am a hot mess and I will be the first one to tell you I might be a hotter mess. Yeah, you are pretty hot. That's why we have six kids, not like that.

Ben: 18:36

No, hey, I got one in oh boy, come on, that was good Come on, okay, keep going All right, all right Serious.

Liz: 18:41

Serious today Serious.

Ben: 18:44

That does dovetail into our next one, which is the concept of virtue signaling right. Oh yeah, Social media or otherwise, if we're putting our things out there to be seen by other men or other women, just like in the Beatitudes.

Liz: 18:58

That's our reward.

Ben: 18:59

Right, Right, that's the reward we get.

Liz: 19:01

No, I know, and it's so. There is a fine line. I feel as being an influencer. It's so hard because, in a way, it's like you have a message and you're to be a messenger, but all that can be filthy, stank rags, right? Yes, yeah, for real, yeah, for sure, for real, For sure.

Ben: 19:21

Yeah, or that could be your reward, right? It's just that. It's just the fact that you have the platform. If you're not doing it in the right motivation of heart, if you're not humble, then you miss out on the reward.

Liz: 19:31

Totally. And what's the reward, Ben?

Ben: 19:33

The reward is God. Yes, god's the reward. Yes, yeah, he's what we hold on to. So another one is selective Bible application. So another sign. So we went through two already Comparison-based spirituality, virtue signaling for the fact of being seen. And then this one is really intense Selected Bible application. Basically, what that means is being hard on others and easy on yourself.

Liz: 19:58

No, that never happens in our family, never.

Ben: 20:01

Never, actually.

Liz: 20:03

Not with teenagers. I got a little story.

Ben: 20:05

Oh yeah, this one happened recently actually.

Liz: 20:07

Okay. Are you going to use any names? No, I won't use any names.

Ben: 20:11

Okay, I'll try to protect the children. But you know who you are Because we're finding out that our kids' friends are watching this podcast, our one less mess.

Ben: 20:20

So one of our children. Well, sorry, I guess it starts with me, so the story starts with me. So we were on a ride. We recently went to a theme park. I was on a ride. My phone fell out of my pocket. Oh yes, and I noticed it when we got off the ride. It was probably about five minutes after we had left the ride and I panicked and I was like oh shoot, I don't know where my phone is, I don't know where my phone is Right.

Ben: 20:43

You're like did, because when you were on this ride you pulled it out, so you knew you had it and it was a slow ride, so it wasn't like a roller coaster or anything, yeah, but I ran back and I talked to the little attendant and and this attendant was little. Yeah.

Liz: 20:56

Which is kind of funny.

Ben: 20:58

She was. Yeah, she was shorter than you actually she was.

Liz: 21:00

I was like she's my people, that's right, I love her. She's my person, might.

Ben: 21:03

She's my person Might be related, yes, so anyways, she pointed me to the front and within about 10 minutes we were able to find it.

Liz: 21:10

Yeah, it was easy.

Ben: 21:10

Big relief.

Liz: 21:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think you had to show your ID and prove it was you or something.

Ben: 21:14

Yeah, yeah, or unlock it or something like that, I can't remember. Anyways, we go off throughout our day about an hour or one of my kids comes up to me and says I don't know where my phone is.

Liz: 21:27

Uh-huh, and that was stressful.

Ben: 21:30

And that threw us into a tizzy.

Liz: 21:31

I was self-righteous.

Ben: 21:33

Well, hey, don't steal my story. I was self-righteous, Okay keep going.

Liz: 21:37

We were both self-righteous. I was hot in the wrong way.

Ben: 21:40

I was mad because we had just been stressed out about my phone.

Liz: 21:44

Right.

Ben: 21:48

And I'm thinking to myself oh my gosh, and this particular child happens to have a history of losing things, as do I, but anyways, we were talking about me.

Liz: 21:53

Let's pause on that for a second, because I know your mom's going to watch this and she will understand. I have come to her, I'm like help, help. And she's like well, at this age it just clicked and we've hit that age and it hasn't clicked totally yet.

Ben: 22:10

So, anyway, keep going so, anyways, I just felt my blood boiling and you know, I was getting angry, I was getting upset yeah and you know we started trying to ask questions about where this person was when they last saw it remember.

Liz: 22:26

Yeah, you realize they couldn't remember. Yeah, when did you realize you don't have it?

Ben: 22:28

so we didn't even know where to go back to. Like we were trying to figure out where to go back to when you started guessing of the last couple places we had been and all of a sudden I just was like angry and judgmental and I was like man, how, how is this possible? How could this person? Lord was like, does this seem familiar?

Liz: 22:46

to you? Didn't you just do this like an hour ago, an hour?

Ben: 22:48

ago, and we're so quick, we're so quick to just forget the context of why or how it happened to us Right, and we so easily jump in and think it's character flaws with other people, but we had a miracle. We did. Yeah, we had a miracle, and so I got on my family thread and I just said, hey, this has happened.

Liz: 23:03

I got on my family thread and I just said, hey, this has happened. We need you to pray and I have sisters and a mom who, just like jumped right in there over this.

Liz: 23:11

They're like praying prayers and sending scriptures and all these emojis and I was like dang, it's like an intercessory team like this. And so we began the process of like going to the guest services to see if they have it, and we went to one. Then we went to the other. Well, we went to the first one and they said it's not here, let's call the other one. They said it wasn't there.

Ben: 23:33

Yeah, so weird. We called them and they weren't there, and then we show up to the same place.

Liz: 23:37

Yeah, and I said to Ben I said let's just go in there and just check the second one.

Ben: 23:41

So we went in and when that woman came around the corner with the phone and the cash and the cards and the ID and all the things that you don't want to lose.

Liz: 23:53

And also, too, we were starting to call the bank to pause the debit card, yeah. And as I was calling the bank, I just felt a check in my heart from the Lord, a pause. I just felt like say pause.

Ben: 24:08

Yeah.

Liz: 24:08

And so I was like I don't know why I'm not supposed to do this right now. I'm like we are in a panic.

Ben: 24:12

Right.

Liz: 24:13

And so, anyway, we go in. She comes in with it. I literally looked at the woman and almost started crying. I said you have no idea.

Ben: 24:24

She's and everything a miracle. Yeah, it was a miracle, and it just goes to show you how very easily we see the worst in others and excuse our own behavior.

Liz: 24:33

Yeah, did you apologize?

Ben: 24:35

I probably need to yeah.

Liz: 24:37

I probably need to.

Ben: 24:38

I don't know if I expressed what I was feeling to this person, but to our kids.

Liz: 24:43

I think this individual knows.

Ben: 24:45

Yeah, they probably do. I mean when we gave the phone back. I think this individual knows. Yeah, they probably do. I mean when we gave the phone back.

Liz: 24:47

Yeah, the joy and the rejoicing around the eight of us. I mean, you would have thought we won the lottery. I probably owe them an apology. Oh wow, that's all right. Yeah, you'll take care of that. You're a good dad. Another way to be humble. Okay, next one.

Ben: 25:02

So just real quick, like Jesus often is the hardest on the self-righteous but the gentlest with the humble, and it's very easy to see that in scripture. There's a couple of references where he's talking woe to you Pharisees, you hypocrites. He's pointing out their problems, he's pointing out their own morality. However, with the humble, it's a little bit different story, it's? I don't condemn you anymore. Go and sin no more. It's almost like this hey, you're in the right posture of heart. Now you can continue on.

Liz: 25:33

He's looking at that heart. Yeah, he really is, and he's that way and contrite with several people in the Bible.

Ben: 25:39

You know the woman who washed Jesus's feet the woman caught in adultery and even. Zacchaeus right, it's almost like these people who are desperate and are humble, God is very quick to forgive them. Jesus is very quick to forgive them. But the ones who have this inflated self-righteousness, God calls them out. Jesus calls them out.

Liz: 25:59

Yeah.

Ben: 26:00

And so I think that's a lesson for us Don't be self-righteous, be humble, check yourself, check yourself, check yourself, be humble, check yourself, check yourself, check yourself and then, lastly, just um, being blind to our own self-righteousness. Jesus talks about this in matthew 7, about the plank in our own eye. Right, and it's so like this is a central thing. The self-righteousness issue is mentioned everywhere, I believe, in scripture, and you can find it so, many, many different places. It's just essential to who we are to be able to say, hey, I can't walk down this path of inflating my own morality, I can't do anything if I'm not willing to humble myself Now, if I'm not willing to take the plank out of my own eye to see clearly the speck in my brother's eye. So the priority is our own issues, our own inflated self morality. We've got to deal with that first.

Liz: 26:51

It's a BM, but you know, we were together when we were at this park and we were together for quite a few days. And you know, we spent a lot of time together and I feel like the kids did really good, I feel like we did good. But you know, when you're hot, you're tired, you're hungry you know all kinds of things are happening.

Ben: 27:23

Specs start appearing.

Liz: 27:26

Yeah, and I had some individuals come to me, some of my kids, and start talking about, well, this one, and then that one, and I'm like well, did you consider this? How about you? You know? And so you mean, they were able to see around those planks. Oh, we had to work on.

Liz: 27:42

It Must have some mirrors, but you know what ended up happening was there was a softening of hearts and an understanding that, hey, they're just human and they're just trying to make it too. Yeah, you know, and that's what we need to remember, and having grace on one another.

Ben: 27:56

Really is.

Liz: 27:56

Everybody's. Just we have no idea. I know I've said this before, but you know, you always hear people are coming out of a storm, they're in the midst of the storm or they're about to go into a storm. The midst of the storm, or they're about to go into a storm. And so if we just have grace for those that God brings across our path and we keep that in mind. That's going to keep us humble and keep us out of self-righteousness.

Ben: 28:12

Huge. Super important it is One other thing that I totally forgot about, but another quick sign of that Pharisee mindset is assigning moral blame based on circumstances.

Liz: 28:26

Oh yes, this is actually something that.

Ben: 28:28

Jesus talks about quite a bit, and I just want to give two real quick examples John 9, 1 through 3,. As he passed by, he saw a blind man from birth and his disciples asked him, rabbi, who sinned this man or his parents, that he was born blind? So they're basically looking at the circumstances, thinking there's a moral issue involved here. Jesus answered it was not that the man sinned or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.

Liz: 28:55

Powerful.

Ben: 28:56

In Luke 13, one through five. There were some present at the very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. So these people were executed, and he answered them do you think these Galileans were worse sinners than other Galileans because they had suffered in this way? No, I tell you. But unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. So this concept of like, well, were they worse off sinners?

Liz: 29:23

Right.

Ben: 29:23

Because they were the ones that died Right. No, it's not about that. It's about understanding. We're all in need, we're all sinners.

Liz: 29:29

Right.

Ben: 29:30

And we can't sign, you know, moral blame to every circumstance. So we got to get out of that mindset of just always thinking well, if that person's going through a hard time maybe they're not right with God Right, or maybe they're not tithing.

Liz: 29:45

Yeah, I thought that before. So have I.

Ben: 29:47

I was like man, that guy's not tithing. I wonder if he's getting what he deserves here. It's terrible.

Liz: 29:52

It's terrible, but the Lord says that the rain comes on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Ben: 29:55

That's right, yes, and in my business.

Liz: 29:58

I saw that all the time yeah.

Ben: 30:01

And I. We're not in that position to judge who gets the rain Preach. Oh my gosh, can you imagine what a headache that would be?

Liz: 30:09

I don't want to be the rainmaker. We don't want to be the one that assigns the rain.

Ben: 30:13

We want to just believe that God is good, yes, and that he is compassionate and gracious and we don't have to be the ones to judge others and figure out why they're experiencing the things they are.

Liz: 30:29

We just have to pray for them and extend mercy, just like we would want it ourselves Exactly, especially when people are walking through some of the hardest circumstances in their lives. We recently had a family friend who has a couple of small kids and he passed away and some of the things that came against the wife the spouse the questions, like well are you praying hard enough? Are you having faith? Do you believe? It's like?

Ben: 30:45

you know the question's like well, are you praying hard enough? Are you having?

Liz: 30:47

faith Do you believe? And we don't fully understand why the Lord took him home, but we don't judge that. We love the family. We love them through it.

Ben: 30:56

We're not God.

Liz: 30:57

We don't get to decide what's right and wrong and we miss him. Yeah, oh, a hundred percent, yeah.

Ben: 31:03

Yeah, and it you know, we knew this person really well and we were contending for his healing.

Liz: 31:08

Yeah.

Ben: 31:09

And. But here's the thing we're humbled that it happened like it happened, and we just have to trust the Lord. We do have to trust the Lord, and we can't get into that game of, you know, assigning blame Like that's the. I think that's the whole point of these passages we don't get to be the ones who assign blame.

Liz: 31:23

Right.

Ben: 31:24

God is the ultimate judge.

Liz: 31:26

Thank God. Thank God, I'd be a terrible judge. That's the point. Yeah, thank you, we'll catch you there. Thank you, okay, let's move into something happy.

Ben: 31:38

What can we talk about? Oh yeah, I think you got a story you want to share about some of the perception thing or judging others too quickly.

Liz: 31:46

Okay, so we're going to talk about our honeymoon real quick. So we've been married 20 years, so this is 20 years ago which is amazing, and we well. There's a lot to this story, but I'm going to try to make it short because of time. Anywho, we finally get on the ship and this was after.

Liz: 32:04

so some people are good at directions and some people aren't, and some people are good at directions and some people aren't, and some people are planners and some people are not planners and so I happen to be the planner and I didn't know that when I got married, that that was a A gift that I was going to have to use for the rest of my life. When I said I do.

Ben: 32:21

What about navigating? Did you understand that one?

Liz: 32:22

I did not know that I was signing up to be the captain of navigation in our marriage. So, anywho, all that to say, we like get married, we have our first night at a B&B down by the coast and then we're like, okay, we're going to go on a cruise. And he planned the whole thing. And but there were some specific things that he needed to know about, like, for an example, what time the you could not get on the ship. You know cause he's like, for an example, what time that you could not get on the ship, you know because he's like, oh, the ship's leaving at this time, so we have up until this time. Well, it's not. You have to go through security, you have to do all these things, and you know where are we parking, exactly, how far is the drive. And this is back when we had MapQuest that you would print out.

Liz: 33:00

Yeah, there's no GPS on your phone, so anyway, so, yeah, so we almost missed the ship. There's a whole story in that. We'll save that for another episode. Yeah, because that's a very funny story. Yeah, we'll, we'll save that because it will be too long. Okay, so we get on the ship, and I've never been on a cruise ship before you. You had, and I wanted to explore. But something a little known fact about my husband that I didn't know is that he requires a lot of sleep.

Ben: 33:26

This is true.

Liz: 33:27

This is he needs a lot of sleep. So when we had infants, even, in the hospital.

Ben: 33:31

He would sleep all the newborns. I'm so bad.

Liz: 33:39

He requires a lot and I found out from friends that when he was in high school he would be out with them hanging out doing whatever playing putt-putt, golf or whatever and he'd be like sorry guys, it's 8.30 or it's nine o'clock. I got to go home and go to bed. He's a senior in high school, 18 years old. They're like seriously.

Ben: 33:56

It's not like I woke up early either. No, it just requires a lot of sleep. I just needed to go to bed.

Liz: 34:01

So anyway, thank God he's an entrepreneur because he can set his schedule right. He can set a schedule and he can get all the sleepy needs. So, anyway, we get to this cruise ship and I'm like, let's explore. That's my personality when I get to a place, I want to understand the lay of the land, and I didn't fully have the understanding of the vocabulary to express this yet, because we were only married one day, but it was, yeah, intense. So, anyway, I'm like, let's go look at the cruise ship and you're like, let's go to bed. What? And he literally just wanted to go to sleep. I'm like I can't go to sleep. Oh, because it was past 9 o'clock.

Ben: 34:36

Well, also, we had the most stressful time getting to the ship?

Liz: 34:40

Yeah, and yeah, that was another episode and so, anywho. So we're on the ship and you said I want to go to bed. And I'm like, no, I want to go look at the cruise ship exploring. Yeah, and he's like, well, I want to go to sleep. And when he said he wanted to go to sleep, he goes well, I'm going to bed. He takes his wedding ring off and puts it on the nightstand. Well, I come from a big family and when you do actions like that oh no, you didn't, because in my family my parents slept with their wedding rings on. Well, he had only had a wedding ring for one day and it was uncomfortable, he hadn't gotten used to it.

Ben: 35:14

Well, and my parents always took their rings off.

Liz: 35:16

Yeah, well, we never talked about this. So how was I supposed to know, right? So he takes his wedding ring off and says, well, I'm going to bed. And I thought, oh no, you didn't. What are you saying? And I'm a hot tamale. So I was like fine, go to bed. So I was ticked, dude, if somebody tried to mug me or kidnap me on that ship, they were not going to like what they got. I was like boom, mad. So I walked that ship for about two hours. I remember sitting outside the room on some stairs for like 30 minutes just to make sure you were missing me. Wow, and yeah, well, I was. And so I'm sitting there and I'm like, okay, it's been long enough, it's been like two and a half hours. So I go and open up the door and do you know what he's doing? Sleeping, snoring sound asleep.

Ben: 36:01

He didn't come look for me, he didn't stay up and worry for me, sound asleep.

Liz: 36:04

He didn't come, look for me, he didn't stay up and worry for me, nothing. So I was like, okay, fine, and so I took my pillows Because there was a lot of pillows, that we were in a cruise ship and we didn't have a lot of money, so we were in an interior room, which meant there were no windows and not a lot of room, and so I took my pillows and I put them beside me you might have a suitcase too.

Ben: 36:29

I did not put a suitcase there we had a big king bed, so I put those pillows right down the middle. You made the Great Wall of China.

Liz: 36:33

I did Right down the middle Intentionally, yet not intentionally, and I was like I got to get some sleep. I'm tired, so anyway, I go to sleep.

Ben: 36:38

You literally walled me off.

Liz: 36:40

I did. So I go to sleep and he wakes up at some point, probably after his precious, not just eight hours, but probably 10 hours of sleep I'm just kidding, he does good on eight. So he wakes up and I remember I'm like half awake, half asleep, because that's what women do, Like it takes a lot for us to get that deep rim, anyway. And so he's like hey, where are you? What happened? And he's like, touching over all these pillows. He's like what did you do? Why are you so far away? And I mean, we've only been married. This is our second night in the same bed and I was like don't touch me. And I'm up against the edge as far as I can go. And he's like what happened? Why are you mad at me? I'm like what are you thinking? I'm like you took your wedding ring off so, anyway, it was all about misperception.

Ben: 37:28

What am I leaving out? I feel like I'm leaving. Well, I think what's really funny is I'm the one that leaves my ring on now, and you're the one because I've cut, I've cut, I cut myself with my diamond and with all the infants. I just never wanted, so it became a habit?

Ben: 37:42

yeah, because I'm like I just don't want to hurt anybody in the night and I'm like that's too too much trouble to take it off, so I'm just going to leave it on. Oh my gosh. But the thing is is we had different perceptions?

Liz: 37:53

right, we did.

Ben: 37:54

You saw, that same act that I did, but you took it from a different perspective, right, and you know, it's just funny how we ended up in different places. Yeah, we didn we didn't have ill will at that point. Well, I didn't have ill will in my heart.

Liz: 38:06

No, you didn't. But you didn't come and find me either.

Ben: 38:08

Right, that's true, it's true. And my norm was going to bed, your norm was Exploring, exploring, and so I was like, how dare she do this? I'm so tired.

Liz: 38:17

And you're like how dare he go to sleep? I want to go explore. So it's just a funny story. It is a funny story, funny story. We'll need to share the first part of that at some point, at some point yeah, there's another one, though, that I really want to mention.

Ben: 38:35

This is not about us. This happened um with a holocaust survivor oh yeah, um, his last name is denor. His first name I don't really know how to pronounce super well uh, yeahael. I don't know, maybe I'm mixing that up, yael, but anyways, he had to testify against Adolf Eichmann, and Adolf Eichmann was one of the masterminds behind the final solution. So probably not a decent guy, no, I mean. Yeah, anyways, he's not the best of us.

Ben: 39:07

The problem, though, is when D'Nor went to go testify against him in 1961, he starts talking about him and he sees him Right, and he faints, yeah, and it's actually televised. So he faints on live TV. So he was in a 60 minutes broadcast later, actually a couple decades later, right. And so the broadcaster was asking him like what happened in this moment, like what were you feeling? And it's crazy, what denour says he says I was actually afraid about myself.

Ben: 39:40

I saw that I was capable to do this, and the underlying thing here is that he saw Adolf Eichmann as a normal person, just someone like you and me, and he has this realization, as he's testifying Right, and his final conclusion here is I am exactly like he Meaning I'm able to do the exact same kinds of atrocities that Adolf Eichmann did.

Liz: 40:07

Right.

Ben: 40:08

It's mind-blowing. Mind-blowing we always think of the Nazis as kind of like this extreme example, or at least we're not like the Nazis.

Liz: 40:15

Right.

Ben: 40:15

And here's someone who's gone through the concentration camp, someone who has-.

Liz: 40:20

Who was a recipient of terrible crimes. He has every right to think of this person as other than Right right.

Ben: 40:27

And what does he do?

Liz: 40:28

He recognizes his own propensity to do something just as atrocious His humanness.

Ben: 40:40

Crazy. I think that is super important a few decisions or a few circumstances away from being able to commit something so crazy and realizing that we all need a savior.

Liz: 40:54

Yes, I know, I need one.

Ben: 40:56

From the perceived worst of us to the perceived best of us. We all are in the same boat, which is that we need help.

Liz: 41:02

So let's wrap this up, Ben.

Ben: 41:04

Some takeaways. Let's go through some takeaways.

Liz: 41:05

All right, let's do it.

Ben: 41:06

Right, acknowledging that none of us are good, that we all need a savior. This is actually good news. It's freeing, and this whole conversation started with the book the Truth About Us, and it's a brand handsome book, like you mentioned Super great Ben's favorite. My favorite author.

Liz: 41:24

I mean, it's just life changing really.

Ben: 41:26

And so this book, the Truth About Us, has all these points in it, and we're just going to hit them real quick.

Liz: 41:32

And you're going to put a link in the notes. Right, yeah, put a link in the notes so that you can find it Highly highly. Highly recommend it, great book.

Ben: 41:38

He also wrote Unaffendable another one of my favorite, all-time favorites. But recognizing our addiction to feel morally superior, there's actually kind of like almost a drug type of addiction. We get a dopamine hit. The studies have shown we get a dopamine hit when we're able to justify ourselves especially as compared to other people. That is crazy, crazy, and so we've got to get off that addiction cycle and realize we all have the propensity to do wrong.

Ben: 42:06

That is crazy it is. So get off of the at least I don't cycle and get onto. Hey, I am a sinner. I need justification before the Lord, just like the tax collector. It's a pathway to freedom. It really is. Admitting that we're not good is a pathway to freedom. We can stop the comparison game. We can recognize that our value doesn't depend on our goodness. It actually just depends on Jesus's evaluation of us. He thought we were worthy enough to die for, even in our sinful state. So our comparison doesn't need to start with well, I'm better than this. No, we have value because the Lord loves us and died for us and he created us ultimately. So I mean we can find our value in him versus in our own morality, and I think that's so freeing. It gives us joy. We don't have to defend our own image.

Ben: 42:59

We don't have to, you know get in that cycle of moral superiority and it'll actually help us to have more grace for others and we'll be able to have better capacity for genuine relationship where we're not trying to judge one another.

Liz: 43:12

It's like looking through the right lens.

Ben: 43:13

It is.

Liz: 43:14

We need the right lens.

Ben: 43:15

We need that humble periscope to be able to see each other.

Liz: 43:18

Yeah, and I'm just thinking how do we do it practically Holy Spirit every day.

Ben: 43:23

Holy Spirit, lord, help me, give me clean hands and a pure heart.

Liz: 43:27

Yes, yeah, yeah, 100%. Keep me pliable, keep me pliable.

Ben: 43:30

And the scripture takeaway for today is the first scripture that we talked about. It's the tax collector and the Pharisee oh yeah, but it sums up. Jesus sums it up in verse 14. He says I tell you, this man went down to his, his house, justified rather than the other, for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted. That's it. I mean that's it. We have to be humble, and especially when it comes to our own self-righteousness.

Liz: 44:00

Yep, it's good. Well, what an episode. Wow, we went over under, around and through to get this episode done. Tell you what, guys. So hopefully this has been a blessing to you. I know it's been a blessing to us discussing it and, of course, listening to Brant Hansen's book while we were traveling. That's how come we're doing this episode, but we just want to say thank you so much for being a part of our one blessed mess, our one BM. Right, ben? That's right. What do you say? You say oh one BM. Oh one BM. Oh one BM Hour, one BM. But don't forget to subscribe and like and share with a friend who needs this encouragement, wherever you're listening from. I'm not sure how, but give us a comment as well. That helps us get the word out. And follow us on Instagram or Facebook. We have little pages there, and so we'd love to have you follow us, and also we love hearing from you. We've gotten quite a few DMs and it has been so encouraging.

Liz: 44:53

Yes, very encouraging Because we are just. We're not experts, we're just living life. We're bringing you in on the conversation. What were you going to?

Ben: 45:00

say. I said, hopefully we're humble enough to admit that we need the encouragement. Yeah, it always comes at the right time. Yeah, it does. It's amazing.

Liz: 45:09

We always get it at the right time. But anyway, we just want to say thank you for tuning in with us and until next time, embrace your beautiful mess, because if our mess can be blessed, then what, ben? Then so can yours, that's right. So can yours.