Liz: 0:12

Welcome to our One Blessed Mess. This is Ben and Liz and we're here telling our story of raising six kids that we had in eight years while managing an entrepreneurial home with two businesses plus homeschooling, and we currently have four teenagers almost five, which is pretty crazy to think about and of course, we have seven chickens and two dogs, honestly just to keep life interesting. And boys and interesting. Those chickens are all over the place, aren't they?

Liz: 0:40

They are a mess, constant mess, but we love them, we do love them, yeah, and it's warming up, and so they have been producing a lot more eggs. I mean, we're giving our eggs to everybody, aren't we?

Ben: 0:52

That's true.

Liz: 0:53

We eat a lot of eggs, but we can only eat so many eggs Very true. Yeah, and we're happy to give them away, aren't we we?

Ben: 0:59

are. Yeah, it's our fun egg experiment.

Liz: 1:05

Egg experiment Wow, he's in marketing, you guys. Can you tell Egg-esperiment? Wow, he's in marketing, you guys.

Ben: 1:10

Can you tell, maybe, yeah, maybe we shouldn't say that.

Liz: 1:14

Okay, it's pretty bad actually so what is today's conversation about?

Ben: 1:18

Today's conversation is about our God thoughts and, specifically, the power of these thoughts. Yeah. And so-.

Liz: 1:25

Very powerful.

Ben: 1:26

You might think they're inconsequential or small. Maybe you should say small. But, these little things, these little thoughts that we have about God and then also ourselves, can have some really big impact especially on our relationship.

Liz: 1:41

Yes, and if you're married to this man right here, ben Varan, you cannot have small thoughts about God, because he's going to talk about it. When you're on a date, when you're having family dinner, when you go on a walk, it's like Well, they might be small, but we're going to have a lot of them. Yes, yes, yes, but we're going to be talking about it, that's true. So we're really excited about this episode today.

Ben: 2:02

I think it's going to be a fun one.

Liz: 2:03

I think it is too. We're really excited about it. It's a good conversation to have it is good and I think we all need it. Go ahead, we do.

Ben: 2:11

Yeah, we all need it and I don't think we take a lot of time to validate Like we have lots of God thoughts right Right. And sometimes we enjoy communicating those. But I think also importantly like do we validate those thoughts? We find out where they come from. Are they legitimate thoughts? We find out where they come from. Are they legitimate thoughts? Do we talk to other people about them and invite them in to?

Ben: 2:35

say hey, what do you think about this? Is this an actual biblical God thought or not? But it's those small little things that can have a big impact.

Liz: 2:44

I'm smiling because I feel like everybody is getting a glimpse into what it's like being married to you.

Ben: 2:52

I'm on display.

Liz: 2:53

It's not bad, it's good. This is actually good. If you were to come over to our house for dinner or, you know, have a cup of tea, or Ben loves to cook barbecue, we probably are going to get on the subject in some form or another, like you're going to make sure we kind of, but it's good, it's kind of like you right now. It's where you are. So let's, let's talk about it, because I'm excited yeah.

Ben: 3:13

Yeah, Okay. So, like we said, you know a lot. Uh, well, I guess this is a new part. A lot of what we conceptualize about God comes from our thought life. Right and so true. I think that is understated in most people's lives, Like we don't. We don't realize how important that piece is, where you know you can be doom and gloom in your thought life. And that can actually project on how you perceive God or you perceive what God is doing in your life at the moment.

Liz: 3:46

Well, and, and also I'm going to interject, I know you had a thought Okay, I'm going to interject, but also it affects your worldview.

Ben: 3:52

Yes, exactly. I mean, is that what you're about to say? I think yeah, and I was going to say it actually goes to the relationships that you have and can affect those as well.

Liz: 4:00

And your worldview, if the world is going to burn and be blown up in fire, or if you're like I have hope and I have peace and look at this flower blooming right now. Right, exactly, yeah.

Ben: 4:11

It touches a lot of who we are.

Liz: 4:14

See, I'm smart too, you guys.

Ben: 4:15

You are smart.

Ben: 4:16

You're very smart and I think you even have a story about little things having big impacts.

Liz: 4:23

Oh, yes, I do. So we were discussing what we wanted to talk about in this episode and I said I have a story. We always have so many stories. This story, wow, just wow, wow, just wow, it's, it's it. It's a little crazy. So, um, there's a little. If you're listening, you can't see me do this, but you put a w up by your, your mouth, and put the other w up and you say wow, and that makes the wow Okay, and you can do, mom, and you can do cool.

Ben: 4:53

Oh boy, oh wow.

Liz: 4:56

Okay, the C and the L. Okay. Anyway, it was wow, because this is when my business long, long, long, long time ago we had our I was.

Liz: 5:07

I wasn't pregnant with the number six, it was in between number five and number six, and it was the last day of the month, which was is a really big deal in a lot of businesses, and mine was a really big deal because we had a big goal. We were pushing for a big goal and you said, hey, why don't I take all five of our kids out of the house and I'm going to take them for a hike? And I was like, yes, I love this idea, and I had a sister over who was helping me that day. We had a lot going on, it was really busy and you took the kids for a hike. You were gone for quite a while Longer than we should have been.

Liz: 5:38

Yeah, and you guys need to remember, I think our oldest was six, so they were like six, five, four, two and one. They were little, they were all little. And you even put our youngest on your back, right, didn't you have like a backpack? Yeah, I had a little kid carrier backpack.

Ben: 5:56

Yeah, kid carrier backpack.

Liz: 5:57

Those are great. Yeah, you had one of those and you took them on this long hike and as you were doing the hike I mean you tell the story, you're the one on the hike I'm like regurgitating what you told me. Talk about it. I see it in your face.

Ben: 6:10

Okay. So yeah, went on a hike and I thought I knew exactly where I was.

Liz: 6:17

Imagine that.

Ben: 6:18

And was doing everything at the right time, but then I happened to look at my watch. I've got five kids in tow. And it's dinner One literally towing on my back. Yep. But yeah, look, and it's dinner time and I'm like, oh my gosh, we're not going to make dinner at the right time. So I thought, hey, we need to speed this up. I thought this is where this trail was, but we are taking a lot longer than we need to. So I make my own trail and you thought you had a shortcut.

Liz: 6:50

If you're in the woods and you try to make your own trail, there's wisdom, and sticking on the trail that's already made.

Ben: 6:54

This is deep people. I didn't have enough wisdom yet to understand that, so I made my own trail and we went through a lot of brush and this was the missouri uh oh yeah wilderland, you know like yes, woods yes, and so there were a lot of creatures where we went and so we came home, got the shortcut done and it's like the sun is like setting, so he like walks in and I'm like okay, you're here.

Liz: 7:20

I think we made like spaghetti because it was such a busy day for me, so it wasn't like this like grandiose meal. Maybe we ordered pizza, I don't know. I don't really remember. I feel like it was spaghetti, but anyway the kids were dirty and I'm like we need to put them in the tub yeah, and they're itching.

Ben: 7:38

Came home and we were all dirty like especially our lower parts below the knees, so like knees, ankles and it just looked like we had dirt everywhere and it was funny because I was like I don't remember getting into a whole lot of dirt and mud.

Ben: 7:47

You know we stayed on the trail, except for that last little bit. And so what? Your sister, I think, started taking them and washing them.

Liz: 7:54

Yeah, she put them in the shower. I'm on phone calls. It's a big day, it's a very big day and we're doing all this stuff and these little black areas are not coming off.

Ben: 8:06

Yeah, yeah At all. What we thought was dirt actually wasn't dirt.

Liz: 8:10

It was bugs.

Ben: 8:12

What kind of bugs?

Liz: 8:13

I don't know these little tiny.

Ben: 8:14

They were baby ticks.

Liz: 8:15

They were sent from hell. That's what they were. There were so many.

Ben: 8:18

It looked like dirt.

Liz: 8:19

It looked like we were just Hundreds, yeah, like hundreds and hundreds.

Ben: 8:24

Hundreds on the kids, washing them. They're not coming off.

Liz: 8:27

So now here I am, at the month end, like already stressed out, with my business, like you know, have a big goal. We're wrapping up. I remember it was September 30th, which was the end of a quarter going into another quarter, so it was like a whole quarter deal anyway, and and like the culmination of everything we've been working towards and we're like these things aren't coming off. And then we started seeing move yeah, that was freaky.

Ben: 8:48

They started moving. We realized it wasn't dirt oh, you guys, we're not talking just one, two, three four.

Liz: 8:55

We're talking hundreds five kids plus ben, yeah. So then my sister and I are with tweezers and we're trying to pull these things off of our kids. I mean, we're googling, we're like what is this stuff? Yeah, and so, and I mean not to poo-poo you, but you're like, oh, it's not a big deal. I'm like, look at their legs. I'm like, come here and look at their legs, you're like, oh, oh, and they were covered.

Liz: 9:18

And then I'm like, trying to wash their clothes later that week, trying to wash the clothes, it's not coming out of their socks, it's not coming out of anything. They're still living through the dryer which was on high and hot. So then this one funny part happened and I said well, if they have them, you've got to have them. You're like hairier legs. I mean I think it's okay, I share this part. But then you're like I feel like they're on my chest and so I was like well, take off your shirt. So you take your shirt off and they are embedded in the hair on his chest and I'm like oh, my gosh. So then I'm on your chest with tweezers and my sister looks over, she goes I'm not touching that. She said I'm not touching that.

Ben: 10:02

So yeah, yeah, learned a good lesson that day.

Liz: 10:05

We did learn a good lesson that day. We did learn a good lesson that day. We say on the path we don't turn and go through high brush and the, the kids that were in the front got hit the worst, and the ones that were in the back and and the one on your back, she didn't have as many I should say because she was so high up but, somehow she still had some no, those little things have a big impact.

Liz: 10:23

It was awful yeah so little things can have big impact and so we're equating this to thoughts.

Ben: 10:31

That's right yeah thoughts and you got into this author and, I guess, brain science person.

Liz: 10:39

Neuroscientist, neuroscientist she's amazing. Carolyn Leaf, tell us about her, dr Caroline Leaf, she's from South Africa. She dresses super awesome. She's not the kind of scientist that you would think. I mean, she's got her nails done and everything. She's really brilliant. She's a believer and she has an Instagram, a Facebook page. She is on YouTube. One time I was cleaning out her closet and I was listening to oh my gosh, it was about brain science and now I can't even remember what it is. But it's quantum physics. I listened to her one 20 minutes four times to try to understand quantum physics. Why are you laughing?

Ben: 11:24

I can see that happening.

Liz: 11:24

Yes, and I was in the closet and I listened to it again and again and again and I got a little bit of it, but she's brilliant. She talks about your brain and she has a book called who Switched Off my Brain.

Liz: 11:35

It's about left brain, right brain, but it's all about toxic thoughts and what they have discovered is that when scientists are looking at your brain under a microscope and you are thinking, your thoughts have life and they continue on in life and they grow. So when you have a thought, it doesn't just stop. And what they said is that it's pretty fascinating. She says when you think a happy thought or a good thought, the way that she equates it to, is like this beautiful, bright green, like Kelly green you think of, like spring, everything's turning green, that beautiful bright color. Now she's saying that's not the color, it is under the microscope, but that's what it looks like if we were to say that. And then, if you have a negative thought, it looks like this dead branch, like this witch's branch that you would imagine on a dead tree. And she says everybody has forests in their brain of green and black.

Liz: 12:32

And she says some people have more black and some people have more green and the good versus negative, versus positive, and she says that you can rewrite your brain to have more green or to have more positive thoughts.

Ben: 12:45

And what's that concept called? Oh yeah, neuroplasticity, yes.

Liz: 12:49

Neuroplasticity and she's worked with people who have had whole parts of their brains. You grew up how your habits are and how you think, and what God has always said in his word is true, and science is just catching up. This isn't like something. God knows what he's talking about in his word, especially when it comes to Philippians 4, 8, which I think we're going to get into that scripture later. It's one of my favorites in his word, especially when it comes to Philippians 4.8, which I think we're going to get into that scripture later.

Ben: 13:28

It's one of my favorites.

Liz: 13:30

But you know that literally you can reprogram your brain to think positively. So anyway, she has all this stuff. That's out there. I highly recommend her. The book is really great. She's a fantastic author, she's a great speaker, she has a beautiful accent and her clothes look cool Like I'm. Like the girl is checks all the boxes. She checks all the boxes. She's not your typical scientist.

Ben: 13:52

So honing in on the negative stuff for just a second, okay. I think it's important to realize that sometimes that negative thought process does affect our views and our thoughts on God.

Ben: 14:10

And so I read a book called the God-Shaped Brain by Tim Jennings and he talks about some common misconceptions or misrepresented views of God and I thought that was really interesting and I know I've thought these in my upbringing once or twice and had to like kind of shake free of them. But he talks about a few of them. I'll go through them real quick.

Ben: 14:38

The cosmic cop, so always wanting to catch us, so thinking that God is like this you know cosmic cop who's just waiting to put you in jail or to catch you doing something wrong. Cosmic cop who's just waiting to put you in jail or to catch you doing something wrong. Another misconception is the distant watchmaker, so like just uninvolved, he's wound up the universe and he's letting it kind of just go off to its own devices and he's no longer active or present in the day to day. And then there's this other, one another misconception that we have of God or we think about God it's the celestial vending machine.

Ben: 15:16

Wow so basically, god is Santa Claus, where we just get what we want and we just equate him to the commodity of getting things.

Ben: 15:27

The genie in the bottle.

Ben: 15:28

Yeah, the genie in the bottle, the vending machine, the vending machine, the bottle. Yeah, the genie in the bottle, the vending machine, essentially the vending machine, yeah, and then this one, this one, I think, affected me the most, this last one here, the angry judge. So, primarily punitive or primarily punishing.

Ben: 15:43

Right.

Ben: 15:44

That one, I think, is intense, because and Tim talks about this in his book when you have fear of God, that is not just the healthy fear, but like the fear of being blasted or the fear of being like always scrutinized or always punished. That can lead to anxiety and anxiety can form stress and just a stress response. And if you stay in that stress response, we know that that's terrible for your health. Absolutely Not only mental, but physical health as well.

Liz: 16:17

Yeah.

Ben: 16:18

So you literally can get sick because of your distorted views on God, on the Lord, yeah, yes. Yeah, so that's really powerful. Going through that book was very helpful for me because seeing God as a God primarily of love is so freeing, because it helps tear down those mental images, those false mental images that you had in your brain and trying to rewire our brains to think about God through mostly love and the way he describes himself in the Bible, which is kind of where I want to go next, right, and it's so much better.

Ben: 16:55

It's so much better Like what we typically project or what we get out of culture. Right or maybe even what we've grown up with. Right. When we allow God to define who he is by what he says he is in the Bible. I think we're just shocked and surprised and also like reaffirmed Well, and he's relational.

Liz: 17:12

Intensely, intensely relational, intensely relational. Yes, yes, I know.

Ben: 17:16

And we've learned that even just recently.

Liz: 17:22

I was going to say I would have to say probably this last year, if I were to say one word over my walk with the Lord, this last year would be relational. Yeah, like he's so relational.

Ben: 17:28

He's so relational? Yeah for sure, so let's jump in it. So this is, I think, a pretty common way that we've heard God described. It's from Psalms, Psalms 103.8. The Lord is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in love.

Liz: 17:43

I love that scripture. It's one of my favorite scriptures. There's a beautiful song out there.

Ben: 17:47

Yeah, yeah, it's great. I'm not going to sing it, but it's a great song. So that's a popular verse. But what's cool about that verse is it actually references something else in the Bible, and it's actually referencing Exodus 34, 6 through 7, where the Lord is talking about himself, right. So God is saying this is who I am and this is what I'm like, and that's super important because we allow other influences to kind of define what we think and what we feel about who the Lord is.

Ben: 18:18

But if we refocus our efforts on letting God define himself through his own language and even his own name, that can be powerful, because then you kind of strip away what you've built up God to be in your head and you're like, wait a minute, let's make sure that we're validating what I'm thinking with what God is saying in the scriptures.

Liz: 18:40

And what happened in Exodus? Where is this happening then?

Ben: 18:43

So this is happening with Moses, and there's this fun word that I like to say he loves this word.

Liz: 18:52

This is what I'm gearing up to. I'm like, here it comes.

Ben: 18:54

Get ready the Tetragrammaton.

Liz: 18:58

Is that what was in the Back to the Future? What was that thing called the Flex Capacitor?

Ben: 19:07

Not quite the Flex Capacitor Not quite. It kind of sounds like it should be.

Liz: 19:12

Well, hey, I'm already throwing out all my old school stuff. Cool Okay.

Ben: 19:19

So the Tetragrammatron oh my gosh Is a Greek word to describe.

Liz: 19:23

It's Greek. Yes, wow, it's all Greek to me people.

Ben: 19:27

It's a Greek word, wow, it's a Greek word to describe the four the Hebrew concept of who God says he is which is the I am yeah. Okay, so that's Yahweh and you know that comes. So basically, we we actually don't really know, I think, the original Hebrew how to pronounce all that was in there, cause there's this way that the Hebrew Bible was written uh ancient Hebrew, where you didn't have um some punctuation. You didn't have some punctuation.

Ben: 20:00

You didn't have vowels. Right.

Ben: 20:01

Things were just abbreviated for brevity's sake so that we could get it done quickly, because it was just basically copy.

Liz: 20:07

Well, and they say also when you say Yahweh, it sounds like breath.

Ben: 20:11

So even when we're breathing.

Liz: 20:13

We're saying his name, but anyway, that's a whole, nother deep dive. That is yeah, stay on topic. Stay on topic.

Ben: 20:19

No, no, this is great. There's so much to this. You can spend, literally, you know, days and days just going through all of it.

Ben: 20:25

It's pretty cool.

Liz: 20:30

But the first time we see the tetragrammatron, the flex capacitor.

Ben: 20:32

I like that word Is in. I'm sorry, the first time that God says it and likens it to himself is in Exodus 3, 14. So this is the burning bush encounter that Moses has Right. Right. And Moses is like hey, who do I say, sent me. Basically asking God.

Liz: 20:49

When he's going to go back. Yeah, yeah, go back to the Israelites.

Ben: 20:59

Like who do? I say you know, sent me. And then the.

Ben: 21:02

Lord says I am who I am. Say this to the people of Israel I am has sent me to you, yep. So this is the introduction that God gives for Moses to basically go and say to the Hebrew people so it's the first time that we see God talking about himself and giving himself a name, and this is super important. Right? The I am. There's so much to unpack there. Right, there can be the concept of faithfulness or fidelity. The I am, I am who I am. But I also think at some level it's kind of an invitation into the mystery of God. Like I am. Oh yeah.

Ben: 21:39

Like what does that cause you to think about? When someone says I am, you automatically think you is, you are, but what are you?

Ben: 21:47

like you are who you are. I am who I am. What is that? I think that kind of begins a line of questioning, a line of intrigue and mystery into who God is. A line of intrigue and mystery into who God is. And in Exodus 34, 6 through 7, again we see the Tetragrammatron used there and God comes before Moses and explains his character and it's so cool, he says third and fourth generations. So this is super important. This is like one of the most quoted passages of the Bible in the Bible. So it's central to who God is and I want to break that down very quickly. I know we're kind of camping out here and Liz is giving me the long look.

Liz: 22:51

No, I looked away. I looked away.

Ben: 22:56

But I'll make it quick. So we see a few character descriptions in this verse, right, and it's where we get the concept of who God is from a character standpoint.

Liz: 23:09

Which is why do we want this?

Ben: 23:11

We want this because this is central to how we relate to God. If we're made in God's image, we need to understand who God is from a character perspective, because I honestly think when we're made in his image, he's not talking about necessarily a physical form, or even a functional form. I think what he's talking about is a character. Yeah, and when we can reflect God's character by doing the same things that he does, by being the same way that he is, I think that's when we are back to our original design and that's when we feel the most alive is when we understand his character and we live out that character. Right.

Ben: 23:55

He's created us to be that.

Liz: 23:56

Right.

Ben: 23:57

In that image.

Liz: 23:57

And it's all about thoughts. A lot of it is about thoughts.

Ben: 24:02

I think it starts with thoughts right. It starts with the knowledge of God and then it moves to the love of God and being able to fully love him and love others, and a lot of how we do that and how we relate to that is what we think about God and we understand his character, and so he's compassionate, he's gracious, he's slow to anger, he's abounding in chesed, which is loyal love, covenant, faithfulness.

Liz: 24:27

Rich in love.

Ben: 24:28

So it's that I am who I am. I'm going to be who I'm going to be that faithful peace of God.

Liz: 24:34

You just said one of your favorite words and nobody caught it. Hasid, you say this word a lot I do, you do.

Ben: 24:43

Yeah, well, yeah, especially with our conversations. I really love that, because it's kind of a difficult thing to translate in English.

Liz: 24:51

Here it comes people. Get ready, yeah, okay go ahead, ben, talk about hasid.

Ben: 24:55

But it's, yeah, it's the concept of faithful love. It's not just love, but it's love that endures. It's a covenant love, it's a attachment love. There's a book out there that I'm reading that kind of goes into that concept. It's called Renovated and kind of expands upon the work of Dallas Jenkins. Yeah, and it's just yeah, it's great. It really dives deep into this concept of attachment love, which is where this has said kind of comes into the action. Part of it, like how we attach and how we feel love through the concept of chesed.

Liz: 25:41

It's true, it's good, it's really good, it's good.

Ben: 25:44

The last thing I want to mention real quick on this character breakdown of God is there is a tension between justice and forgiveness. Right.

Ben: 25:56

Right, right, and we see it, and really I believe it's read to be poetic in the sense where maintaining love to thousands means thousands of generations Right. And it follows up at the end by saying that the guilty will receive that generational justice, even to the third and fourth generation. So there is this concept of, you know, god having justice Right. But what's better than his justice is his mercy and his love. And that flows to thousands of generations, whereas the justice is to the third and fourth. It's good, huge distinction, huge, very important.

Liz: 26:37

Huge, you did good. Yeah, thank you for breaking that down, thanks.

Ben: 26:40

Well, hopefully I didn't spend too much time on it.

Liz: 26:41

You did amazing. I think everybody got the concept.

Ben: 26:44

Okay, fantastic. So what does this mean for? Like a real life view of God, like how does this relate? Like practical.

Ben: 26:51

Like practical stuff and I think there's a few stories. One's a biblical story that you mentioned that I thought was really cool. The other one is we knew someone from our youth and he was a leader. He was a youth leader and he had this motivational poster up on his wall. Basically, it said others may, you may not, and it always struck me as odd. I always wondered like, wow, of all the motivational sayings you know that maybe you could put from from the Lord or whatever, and it definitely was like it's supposed to be from God, like this is what you know.

Ben: 27:27

This is what motivated this person, right? It just struck me as odd. It's like not God's love or not that he, you know. Just for some reason this was a motivational part of this person's spiritual formation. And it seemed punitive. It seemed like this was a judgmental thing, or? An anger thing, or like a maybe not anger, but just a.

Liz: 27:54

Yeah, chastisement. Yeah, it wasn't leading in love.

Ben: 27:58

And I understand the part about discipline. Right but discipline comes because of love. Right.

Ben: 28:03

And so it was just weird. It always struck me as odd to see this up on the wall and think that that's motivating someone to go deeper into God or to love God more because of the things you can't do. It just seemed backwards to me Right. Right, right right. Yeah, it seemed like wait a minute, we shouldn't focus on, like what we can't do. We should focus on what we can do and what God gives us, you know, to just feel his love.

Ben: 28:27

Like that ought to be more of the motivating factor and because I know that that shaped his thoughts.

Liz: 28:33

Oh, and his personality or his everything? Yes, yeah, yeah. His personality or his everything? Yes, yeah yeah.

Ben: 28:38

It was just you could tell, like that concept of well, others may, but you may not. No it's. You can't do that. You know it's restrictive, it's it's negative.

Liz: 28:50

And there was that dimension to it. Well, and there's boundaries. The Lord has boundaries and things. Sure, but it was your view his view yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then another example is Wait, I want to say something that our friend this is kind of the opposite she had by her kitchen sink for years. Jesus loves you, but I'm his favorite. Yeah, I think that's amazing, that's cool.

Ben: 29:12

That's a healthy view. That is a healthy view.

Liz: 29:14

Because you're like I'm his favorite. Yeah, Well, we're all his favorite, Right, we're all his favorite. But it's like Jesus loves you, but I'm his favorite, and so when you have that view, it's like I'm coming into the arms of a happy papa and I think also just, I know we're going to get into more of this, but there are a lot of people who did not have great father figures in their life.

Liz: 29:35

I know I didn't, and so the Lord has had to be my father and, truthfully, being in marriage, I've learned a lot about the father's love and us raising kids and watching you be a father, and there's been other examples in my life that the Lord brought, even when I was young, to show me that and so to say Jesus loves you, but I'm his favorite. For some people listening to that, you're just like I don't even know how to wrap my mind around it.

Liz: 30:06

Like how can I, even you know cause? You may be, others may, but you may not like?

Ben: 30:10

you're like.

Ben: 30:11

I feel like he's going to hit.

Liz: 30:13

He's that cop that he's about to take you to jail. I'm going to jail, I know it, instead of that loving father that he is yeah, it's so important because that's where a lot of our identity comes from right.

Ben: 30:25

It's our connections. It's who we love, and it's like who you love tends to become your people right. And so a lot of our identity comes from that train of thought. It's the people you love. And then seeing yourself as a group and then taking on that group identity and internalizing it and realizing like this is who we are.

Ben: 30:47

This is who I am.

Ben: 30:49

So it's important, like it's really important, that we understand our thoughts about the Lord, especially if we say we're his. Right. You know that shapes then the other people that you connect to. So, if you think of God as angry and you think of God as punitive, then you might start connecting with other people who have that same-.

Liz: 31:08

Absolutely.

Ben: 31:10

Viewpoint yeah, viewpoint.

Liz: 31:11

And they're living through that Right right.

Ben: 31:14

And then you start connecting and it's like you got to be careful. You got to be careful that you have the right view of God, that you take God for who he says he is Right, as loving and compassionate. Slow to anger abounding in has said and maintaining love to thousands of generations. Right. But by no means clearing the guilty. So again, we have to have it all in that right perspective, but we know that God is mostly about love and forgiveness. Yes, he is.

Ben: 31:42

And so if we try to bring any other distorted view, it can really distort our entire identity. Right, but tell us about this other real life example that happened in the scriptures with the spies.

Liz: 31:58

Oh, the spies. Okay, I was like, is this another story?

Ben: 32:00

I'm like.

Liz: 32:00

I don't remember another story, oh yeah. So when the 12 spies went into Israel or went into the Cana, into the promised land, and they came back with a report, 10 had a bad report, right, and two had the good report, which were Joshua and Caleb, who, by the way, were the ones that were able to go into the land eventually.

Liz: 32:19

And, by the way, were the ones that were able to go into the land eventually, and this caused the children of Israel to go through the desert for 40 years and I have been in that desert and it is not pretty. Okay, did you ride a camel or something? Yeah, I did. I was on a camel for three days. I went on a camel trip. It was awesome. That sounds awesome. His name was Gideon. That was the name of my camel. He actually saved my life. That's a whole nother story We'll have to share in another episode. But he did. I almost fell off the cliff and he's, he saved my life. That's just another story. Okay, but when, um, those children or the, the spies I shouldn't say children when they came back, the 10 that had the negative view, they like, were in fear and there were giants in the land. Sure, there were giants, they're probably nephilim. There were giants in the land. Sure, there were giants, they're probably Nephilim there were giants in the land.

Liz: 33:02

Okay, and then. But the two that came back and had the positive report they knew I am was with them they they're like, we can do this because they knew the character. They knew the character of God and they knew that he was for them. And so it really I mean because of the views it forced him to go in the desert for 40 years. An entire group of people.

Ben: 33:24

Yeah, crazy. That is crazy when you think about that.

Liz: 33:27

That was all about thoughts.

Ben: 33:29

Yeah, thoughts, and not knowing the character of God and then ultimately not having faith that God will do what he says he's going to do.

Liz: 33:37

Which is scary, and we understand that. Yeah, we've been faced with things in our years of marriage.

Ben: 33:42

Right.

Liz: 33:42

That it's like okay, lord, we're doing this in faith. Yeah, how is this going to work?

Ben: 33:48

Yeah, it kind of also reminds me about Jonah. Oh yeah, and one of the motivating factors for Jonah not going to Nineveh was the fact that he knew God was merciful. Right. And he didn't want to see God have mercy on his enemies. Crazy, that's wild to me.

Liz: 34:06

It should be wild. It should be wild.

Ben: 34:09

It's not God who's saying hey, you know, I want these people to just be wiped off the map. It's Jonah who was like wait a minute, these are Assyrians, Right. Like these are the people, people that-.

Liz: 34:24

Well, and they were really bad, you and I over the summer we went to the British Museum in London, yeah, sennacherib, and we got to see his stuff. And I mean, if you read what they did to Israel, and this was a generation before Jonah- he was bitter. I mean they did terrible atrocities to the Jews. It's terrible.

Ben: 34:41

This is crazy because this is like an Old Testament example of like love your enemies. Right. Right, like God's the same. And then, jesus, we read about the Beatitudes and loving our enemies and the rain, you know, falling on the just and the unjust. And then here you have this example of like God calling Jonah to, to call Nineveh to repentance, but because God wants to redeem this people he loves everybody, yeah, and. Jonah's like oh no, thank you, they're my enemies.

Liz: 35:12

Jumps on a boat and goes the wrong way, right, right, well, and I'm also just thinking to when David, the people, when he shouldn't have counted the people. And then it was here comes the judgment or what's going to happen.

Ben: 35:24

Yeah.

Liz: 35:25

And David made the choice and he said I would rather you judge me.

Ben: 35:29

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, he gave him the option.

Ben: 35:31

He gave him the options. Because he knew that God would be merciful. And he did come Right. You know, be merciful and he did come right.

Liz: 35:41

You know, there was judgment and god is a god of judgment we need to remember this as well, like this is true part of his character.

Liz: 35:43

He mentions his character right um, but I think it's knowing jesus loves you. But I'm his favorite.

Ben: 35:52

I like that yeah, I like that. It's, that it's that perspective.

Ben: 35:55

It's that perspective so what can we take away from?

Ben: 35:59

this. I mean there's a lot, there's a lot of practicals. Let's get into practicals.

Ben: 36:03

Let's jump to the practicals All right. So this book, Renovation of the Heart, by Dallas Willard, talks about a lot of practical steps for thought transformation. So number one daily meditation on scripture. Right, we have to have the knowledge of God to understand the character of God. Yes.

Ben: 36:21

So just like God revealed himself in Exodus and revealed himself to Moses and talks about basically the I am the, I am a God merciful, and he just goes down the line. He gives his character attributes. Like if we don't have a meditation on the character of God on a regular basis, then we can start to allow those thoughts to kind of creep back in and those distorted views or even what culture says, and you know, what's screaming the loudest?

Liz: 36:52

Yeah, what's screaming the loudest? What's screaming the loudest?

Ben: 36:53

So we've got to make sure that we give, I believe, daily meditation on the scriptures so that we can have the knowledge of God and thus the character of God.

Liz: 37:01

And I just want to say, too, that we know that there's a wide range of people who listen to our podcast.

Ben: 37:09

Yeah.

Liz: 37:09

And no matter where you are, no matter what season you're in, just one scripture just meditating on that and thinking about that throughout the day. So much can be unpacked in it, because his word is living and it's alive.

Ben: 37:23

Yes.

Liz: 37:24

And I'm thinking about the seasons when I had lots of little ones. I mean, we had three in diapers twice, three in diapers two different times. So that's a lot of diapers in a day.

Liz: 37:36

And we were always potty training and there was always so many things going on and I was of course always pregnant, which we've talked about that a lot but even in those years which are a blur, but even those blurry years in the midst of it and I didn't do it perfectly, but it was like the Lord's grace was there because of his character. And it was just even a simple song. Sometimes that.

Liz: 37:58

I would wake up in the morning and it would be a little song in my heart and I would kind of just sing that song throughout the day and then it would be my bread.

Liz: 38:06

It would be life-giving to me. It would be the meditation it may be a VeggieTales song that the kids would be listening to, you know or even when we were teaching our kids first time obedience in that song. Slow obedience is no obedience like that was convicting for me, like you know. But remembering that it's not this like he's coming down hard on me, but it's because I want to listen and obey yeah because, he loves me and I want to obey his word so like, so, so much.

Liz: 38:37

no matter where you are, maybe you're in a season where your kids are playing a lot of sports right now and it's just like you know, or maybe you're an empty nester and you have you're, you're retired and you have like ample amount of time. It's that it's all the different seasons, but it's making a priority.

Ben: 38:55

Sure, it's the first fruits concept. It's right Giving the best of your day to the Lord, I think. For me that means the mornings.

Liz: 39:03

And for some people it's not the morning Sure.

Ben: 39:05

Sometimes it's the evenings.

Liz: 39:06

It's the evenings and we were just talking to our kids about this, because we're really trying to help them grow in their devotion with Jesus, and so we talked about what are practically what all those things look like and going out and taking a walk yeah, practically what all those things look like and you know going out and taking a walk. Yeah, one of the kids said I really meet with God in the shower. I said you're my kid. I don't know why, but he just shows up in the shower.

Ben: 39:25

It happens to me sometimes. Yeah, it's like.

Liz: 39:27

I think it's because nobody else is around me, right? I can finally have quiet. You know, and it's just it's. I'll have the Bible app and I have it playing a lot of times too, but anyway it's good yeah so it's practical.

Ben: 39:38

Yeah, yeah. So daily meditation super big right, super important. Another thing this is really interesting that came from this book Renovation of the Heart journaling revelations. Oh yes. So, as God reveals his character to you, writing that down, keeping a journal of that.

Liz: 39:55

Because you think you're going to remember it, but you don't.

Ben: 39:57

Yeah, yeah, we've both kept journals and we've got a friend who does amazing with these journals.

Liz: 40:02

Oh my gosh, she has boxes and boxes and boxes and boxes of journals.

Ben: 40:06

We're not quite that level. She's a rock star, yeah yeah, and this is through having lots of kids too.

Liz: 40:13

There's been some really cool things that have affected us, even from her journaling yeah, from her journaling, yeah, dreams andaling, yeah, and she goes back and she finds them.

Ben: 40:17

Oh yeah, I'm like whoa yeah, we're, we're more of, well, I'm more of the once or twice a month kind of journaling, but you're getting it in there, I'm getting it in there. Yeah, yeah, trying to get it in there, and then you do have one for the kids like we through their, their years.

Liz: 40:30

We'll pick it up and write. You know, kind of right in there and so we're going to hand it to them when they leave the nest.

Ben: 40:36

Yeah, yeah, because I think journaling your thoughts and your appreciations.

Liz: 40:41

And your revelations, and your revelations is super important. What is he whispering to you?

Ben: 40:44

Exactly, especially about his character, because, again, we're made in that image. We have to reflect it.

Liz: 40:49

Okay, so I have one real quick that I'm just going to share, okay.

Liz: 40:51

So when COVID came and everything was shutting down and the kids, so when it all happened was during the kids' spring break this is back when they were in school and it was during their spring break and so then we were not going back to school. The whole world didn't know what was going on and the email went out and said we're just gonna take the week off and then we'll figure it out. Well then, after the one week so now the kids have been out of school for two weeks come to the school and pick up your homework packets for the next two or three weeks I forget what it was. So every teacher had to go in, they had to put everything together and us, as parents, had to go it was very organized and pick up the packets for all the kids. And I mean we were kind of fearful because we didn't know what was going to go on in the world.

Liz: 41:36

As I'm driving into the school and I have a song that's going through my heart this is a lot of times, how the Lord will speak to me is like little songs, and the song was don't you worry about a thing, don't you worry about a thing, mama. And as I'm turning into school. I was like wait a second, the Lord is speaking to me, he's speaking to me, don't you worry about a thing, do not fear, do not fear. And he even said mama. And I'm like, oh, and so it just changed my perspective. I mean, granted, we had lots more ahead of us that we didn't know, but it was like don't agree with fear, don't you worry about a thing. You keep your eyes on me and I know people walk through all kinds of stuff, and I'm not diminishing the hardships that people faced I am not, but it was just that little sweet as I like to say kiss from heaven. Don't you worry about a thing, don't you worry about a thing, mama. I'm like, oh my gosh. And I held on to that for months months.

Ben: 42:40

It's kind of funny because one of the most common things that the Lord or angels speak to people when there's that encounter is do not be afraid.

Liz: 42:47

Do not be afraid. Well, because they're angels, hello. I mean, if I had an angel show up in front of me, I think I would pass out, I think I would hide, I think so too, but it's just, I mean that's cool, that's like a-. Do not be afraid, you are massive yeah.

Ben: 43:01

And that goes, I think, back to our thoughts, right, yeah.

Ben: 43:05

Right the character.

Ben: 43:06

That anxiety, that fear sometimes is rooted in misconstrued thoughts, so it can have a massive impact, which, that's the next point, is catching and correcting distorted thoughts. Right, so we talked about two so far daily meditation, journaling, revelations of God's character, and then catching and correcting distorted thoughts.

Liz: 43:26

I love this one Taking your thoughts captive is really what?

Ben: 43:29

that is, but again specifically as it applies to the character of God, because that's so central to how we form our identity.

Liz: 43:37

So I am all over this one about taking your thoughts captive, because the battlefield of the mind, I think there's a book out there by Joyce Meyers.

Liz: 43:45

Okay, so many good books, so many good books and so much good stuff.

Liz: 43:49

And it's true, it's true, it's true, it's true. Do you want to have more black forests in your brain, or do you want to have more green forests? And so you, if the thoughts keep on going. That's what science tells us that when you're thinking a thought, they see that it just keeps growing and growing. That's what science tells us that when you're thinking a thought, they see that it just keeps growing and growing and growing. You have to stop that thought.

Liz: 44:06

And the Bible says to take your thoughts captive, and so something that I would teach those that were on my team, because we were in sales. I mean there's a lot of thoughts. I mean especially when you're like I want to achieve and hit these goals and hit these marks, no matter where you are right. But when I was working with my team, we literally would say cancel, cancel, cancel, like you know, cancel cancel cancel culture Can't Lord.

Liz: 44:35

Not that. Sorry, that was wrong. I love you, that is not what I was talking about. But you have to go cancel, cancel, cancel, and I would snap my fingers, cancel, cancel, cancel. And what happens is is like you like, you're like nope, I'm going to take that thought captive. It is not healthy, it is not going to produce good fruit in my life I am not going to make agreement with that and I'm casting it down.

Liz: 44:51

You were being a lumberjack. I thought jack. I thought jack. Oh, that's funny, that's good. We should put that on a t-shirt or a hat. Be a thought jack, so that would.

Liz: 45:00

That would strike up a really good conversation, and you should do like the, that you know, take every thought, captive scripture, or philippians 4, 8, okay, anyway, we're going on, okay. So, but in the process too. I know and I'm speaking from a woman that a lot of times we get in our head and sometimes your head is a dangerous neighborhood and you do not need to go in there by yourself of those, those crazy black trees you're talking about, and you do not need to go in there by yourself, especially if it's full of those crazy black trees you were talking about.

Liz: 45:25

Yeah, no, you do not need it. So we have the help of the Lord, we have the help of the Holy Spirit to help us, guide us right. How do we get good thoughts? By reading his word by rewriting our brains, by thinking correctly, and I know for me a lot of times where I find myself in a spiral of bad thoughts can be in the shower.

Liz: 45:46

It can be when I'm alone in the car, and it's like you do not want to go down that spiral because, before you know it, you have gotten mad at five or six different people. You have worked out a scenario that is not even true.

Ben: 45:59

Right.

Liz: 45:59

And you're there at the other end and it's like you're exhausted.

Ben: 46:03

And I think there's a key distinction here, Like we're not saying stuff your emotions, stuff your feelings don't process them. What we're saying I think what you're saying specifically is don't feed that negative feedback cycle where you just ruminate on the bad. Look at the good, yeah, process what you're going through. Obviously, you have to get that out. You can't stuff it.

Liz: 46:26

Do that through prayer, do it through journaling. If you need a counselor, get a counselor. Go to your pastor, go to your leader. Talk to your spouse.

Ben: 46:32

Yes.

Liz: 46:32

Unless your spouse is the problem, just kidding.

Ben: 46:34

Oh boy.

Liz: 46:36

We should do an episode on that. But no, in all seriousness, get the help that you need Right. Get some right thinking.

Ben: 46:44

Right, it's both and.

Ben: 46:45

It's a both and.

Liz: 46:46

Yeah, but you can prevent forest fires.

Ben: 46:50

Smokey the bear.

Liz: 46:50

Smokey the bear. You can prevent it and you know what. And I just want to say to anybody who struggles in this area you really can. It is training.

Ben: 46:58

Yes.

Ben: 46:59

It's forming the habit well, just like you know, just like anybody who is doing any kind of athletic achievement, right, you can't just jump in and run a marathon. No, you have to take those little steps and that little training you like couch to 5k oh gosh, we, we, we gotta save that for another time.

Liz: 47:16

That's a good one now okay so that's great.

Ben: 47:20

I feel feel like you know tons of practical examples there. Another good book is the Anxiety Reset. Oh yeah, and we reduce anxiety when we trust God's goodness right. That's one takeaway from that book Better stress management when that happens. Improved emotional regulation yes, there's so much about trusting God's goodness, his character, yeah, and a lot of great practical knowledge comes from anxiety research and it's a very good book to start with. Yeah, and specifically to mental health.

Liz: 47:48

For mental health I think it's really really good, especially if you're feeling anxiety. I also want to say put your phone down get off social media, and it's not just because of what people's lives are looking at. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the science and your brain, with you scrolling and looking at a screen that, that

Liz: 48:06

is giving you, because what's happening is your endorphins and your dopamine hits and that's actually causing anxiety. And so put your phone down, limit yourself throughout the day or all day, don't turn screens off at a certain time or time block. We really need to do an episode on this.

Ben: 48:23

We're going to.

Liz: 48:24

Okay, we've teased it too many times, yeah, but put your phone down and get outside, go draw, go journal and help that anxiety come down.

Ben: 48:32

But anyway no that's great, that's beautiful.

Ben: 48:36

One other book real quick and this is the impact on relationships, so kind of. We already talked about the spiritual stuff. We talked about mental health. Right. This book is you Are what you Love. Oh yeah, and it's the impact on relationships, kind of with what we're talking about here Habits too. Yep. And so how you view God affects how you parent Right. It affects how you love your spouse.

Liz: 48:58

Yep Friendships, community Friendships, even community.

Ben: 49:06

Yeah, like there's so much that those thoughts really impact because it's identity, yes, right, yeah. We're made in the image of God. We're made to reflect his character. When we don't, it changes the nature of who we are. Right. Right, and so we have to get back to knowing God, knowing who he is, what he's like, and thinking on those things and participating in the same character attributes that he has and you can trust him.

Liz: 49:27

Yeah, 100% you can trust him, and I know some people out there are just feeling hurt.

Ben: 49:31

Yeah.

Liz: 49:32

They're feeling like. I'm just thinking of a conversation I had a couple of weeks with a young lady and she was just having a really hard time trusting the Lord and because she felt hurt and we got to the core of it and it was like, okay, what are the steps that we're going to do to for you to see that he's not standing there with a broom and about to knock you over the head? Because, he's disappointed in you.

Ben: 49:57

Right, right.

Liz: 49:58

He loves you.

Ben: 49:59

Yeah.

Liz: 50:00

You're human.

Ben: 50:01

Get some of that has said.

Liz: 50:03

That's has said yeah and I human Get some of that has said that has said yeah. And I asked her. I said you know where are you reading in the scriptures?

Ben: 50:09

right now, yeah, yeah.

Liz: 50:11

Where are you? You know, because he's beautiful.

Ben: 50:13

Yes.

Liz: 50:14

He's friendly.

Ben: 50:15

Yeah.

Liz: 50:16

And he likes you. He doesn't just tolerate you, he likes you. Not only that, he likes your enemies too. He does, which is really hard. Well, and I'm just thinking of a scripture that's in Song of Solomon. When I got this and it was like oh my gosh and the scriptures. You know he's talking to the shulmite, but he says, with one glance of your eyes, I am. I'm ravished and you know it's very poetic language and you know I was always taught don't read that until you're married.

Liz: 50:46

You know, that's what I was taught, Well.

Ben: 50:54

Song of Solomon. And then when I read it, I was like huh, what the heck?

Liz: 50:56

Pomegranates and under a tree and then these people that I was reading it with were like hilarious about it. I'm thinking you guys, this is weird, Like love language, whatever, Anyway. But I mean, if you turn to me and start saying that my neck is like the tower of I anyway, I love you.

Liz: 51:14

Don't say that to me so, but with one glance of your eye. So this is to us, this is to you, with you just making a glance, like you guys, even us just talking about this. You listening to this on this podcast. He is so happy, like it says, his heart is ravished, which, when you read that it's talked about, he twirls and he dances like he's cheering us on, and I always get this picture of us as toddlers learning to walk. We we've watched six of our kids take their first steps.

Liz: 51:43

We- were so blessed to be there and we have some on video and the kids watch those over and over again and we're all cheering them on.

Ben: 51:50

That is literally what the Lord is doing he's looking at us as we're toddling through life.

Liz: 51:56

And yes, there's a maturing. Yes, we put away childish things, yes, but at the core of it, like he's, happy.

Ben: 52:04

Yeah, the core of it, he's love.

Liz: 52:06

He's love.

Ben: 52:07

Yeah.

Liz: 52:07

He's love and he's cheering us on. So when I was speaking with this young lady, I'm like he like, really likes you. He isn't tolerating you because, she had the wrong view. Right Her thoughts were off because she hadn't thought the right thoughts. And there's a whole thing and all that, but he's cheering us on and just the glance.

Ben: 52:27

just think about it just a glance.

Liz: 52:28

I just glance at you, he's loving that. He is loving that. I love that. I love that. Give us more. Let's go, oh man it's so good.

Ben: 52:35

There's so much we can say, but let's just jump to a couple scripture takeaways. Right, I'll hit the first one. Maybe you can hit the second one, cause I know you like that. That's your one of your favorite verses.

Liz: 52:47

Oh, I get to say my favorite scripture.

Ben: 52:48

That's right. So second Corinthians 10, five, we demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. So again, it's that knowledge piece right. Yeah, the knowledge of God and really the mind of Christ. Yeah, you know, and so like the mind of Christ. I feel like you can describe that as the character of Christ, the character of God Like. What is he thinking about? What makes him tick right? Yeah.

Ben: 53:18

It's that I am who I am. It's that invitation into the mystery of God and to finding out about who he is, and I feel like that mystery never fully resolves. Right. Like we know a lot because a lot's been given to us through the scriptures, but the scriptures is just a way to get to the personality of God right. We can't just limit our relationship with the Bible. It has to get us to the point where we have a relationship with our creator.

Liz: 53:49

Yeah, Fully God and fully man yeah, that's what scriptures say.

Ben: 53:52

And discovering him through the scripture, but then cultivating that relationship, that talking, if you think about it, scripture is all God breathed, but it's literally him having dialogue with other people. Right, we can have that same thing Right, right, right, right.

Liz: 54:08

No, it's so good. And then I also like that word. Picture that you gave us a thought, Jack, yeah thought Jack. Taking captive every thought and making it obedience to Christ. So cancel, cancel, cancel.

Ben: 54:21

That's right.

Liz: 54:22

Yeah, don't get in that spiral. Stop, stop, stop. And then I love Philippians four, eight, and I'm so glad you get to Tim. Let me share the scripture. But finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things, and I those are green forest thoughts. Right, green forest thoughts.

Ben: 54:50

Yeah.

Liz: 54:50

You know, and it doesn't mean that you're Pollyanna- no. Okay, it doesn't mean that you're Pollyanna.

Ben: 54:55

The Psalms is not Pollyanna. No, there's a lot of lament, oh yeah.

Liz: 55:07

It's and we have, and you guys, we have seasons, we have ups and downs. We are going up the hill, down the hill, we're coming out of a storm, in the midst of the storm, or going into a storm. There is life, life, life, life, life.

Liz: 55:12

But in the seasons of life, it's part of his character to think on these things and think his thoughts and think his ways, and I just think so many times for myself when I am in the midst of a situation, we're going through something, we're looking at something I'm like, okay, I got to go spend time with the Lord and hear what he has to say Like I got to get anchored in him. It's God thoughts. It's like maybe a scripture, maybe it's just one word, maybe he gives me a picture, maybe there's a movie and he speaks to me through the movie.

Liz: 55:47

There's so many. He's huge, he's a creator, he created all of it and it's beautiful. This thing that we get to do as believers and Jesus is so fun. It's so fun.

Ben: 56:01

It's almost like we're created to be in relation, oh Lord.

Liz: 56:07

Yes, ben yes, ben yes, captain obvious.

Ben: 56:11

Anything else? Do you have anything else before we?

Liz: 56:13

Okay, so we're going to go ahead and wrap this up, so thank you for being a part of our One Blessed Mess today. Don't forget to subscribe, to share, to like to heart. However, you're listening to this. We love comments. We love your messages, um, if you go to our website, um, our one blessed messcom, you there'sa contact form there. You can contact us through that, um, and then also to follow us on instagram, follow us on facebook um share our information, especially if you think that there's somebody out there that would enjoy listening to our podcast. We really have the heart and the desire to serve the body and really just welcome you into our conversation.

Ben: 56:53

Yeah, we'd like to hear from you what you would like to know about or to hear us talk about, or anything like that. So what do?

Liz: 56:59

you want to hear us talk about. I think one that we do need to tackle at some point in time is definitely a screen based lifestyle, like we've got to get into that because we're walking through it hard. Well, and we just want to invite you into our convictions, that's really what it's about, yeah. Yeah, but until next time, everybody, we would love to just say embrace your beautiful mess, because if our mess can be blessed, what Ben?

Ben: 57:24

So can yours.

Liz: 57:26

So can yours have a great day.