Liz: 0:12

Welcome to our One Blessed Mess. This is Ben and Liz, and we're here telling our story of raising six kids in eight years, managing our entrepreneurial home with two businesses, homeschooling, and currently raising and navigating life with four teenagers. Plus, we have seven chickens, two dogs, and that's just to keep life interesting, and, trust me, it's interesting. Today's conversation topic is about what, ben? What are we talking about?

Ben: 0:39

today. Well, before we get to the topic, I just want to say how nice your hair looks.

Liz: 0:43

Aw, thank you.

Ben: 0:44

You're so kind, I've been trying to go to compliment school.

Liz: 0:47

Yes, we need to do an episode on compliment school. It's taken 20 years.

Ben: 0:51

Yeah, I'm a slow learner, you're graduating. I'm a slow learner, you're graduating. Yeah, 20 years to graduate from compliment school.

Liz: 0:56

I love it. You're getting an A plus, plus, plus plus.

Ben: 1:00

Well, I didn't start off with that. No, no, no, it's okay, but it's all right. Yeah, another topic for another day.

Liz: 1:05

It's okay, you think it. It doesn't come out of here to here. Yeah, yeah, that's the problem.

Ben: 1:11

There's a disconnect between here and here.

Liz: 1:14

Yeah, so anyways, we're working on it. We're working on it, but thank you, thank you for saying that. I appreciate it.

Ben: 1:19

You're welcome. So today's topic is raising anti-fragile kids Yep.

Liz: 1:30

What in the world does that even mean? That is quite the mouthful. What does that even mean?

Ben: 1:36

I'm glad you asked, so you might have noticed that our society loves to protect some would even say coddle children. That's true, Right. Some would even say coddle children.

Liz: 1:47

That's true.

Ben: 1:48

Right. So we're all about trying to remove harm, discomfort, even fatigue, from our kids, because we take on that protector role as parents.

Liz: 2:01

Yes, we do.

Ben: 2:02

And we want to keep our kids from being upset. But there's kind of a negative attached to an extreme form of that protection. And so we're going to talk about what that negative is. I'm not smart enough to come up with that word, Someone else did but the whole concept is that when you're being too protective, you're not letting the natural anti-fragile part in your children to develop.

Liz: 2:34

So basically you're putting your kids in bubble wrap. Is that what you're saying? Pretty much Okay.

Ben: 2:38

I understand Pretty much.

Liz: 2:39

But you know what? I can kind of relate to that discomfort and fatigue. I mean I feel like-.

Ben: 2:45

You personally? Huh, yeah, me personally. Oh, tell us about this relating.

Liz: 2:49

Maybe six times in my life.

Ben: 2:52

Well, yeah, six times that I didn't experience that.

Liz: 2:55

No, you certainly didn't.

Ben: 2:56

I mean, I had some sympathy cravings and let me tell you I got really tired watching you give birth.

Liz: 3:02

This is actually true.

Ben: 3:03

I had to take a nap once or twice.

Liz: 3:11

Oh my gosh, I don't even want to get into the nap schedule. I really don't Okay. Yeah, this is true, but I was just thinking of a moment when I was pregnant with number four and I was like very fatigued, very discomforted.

Ben: 3:20

Is it bad that I had to go through the names of which one number four was Like when you said number four. I was like oh shoot, which one is that?

Liz: 3:28

That is bad. No, our kids are going to watch this. That's terrible. And our family's going to watch it. Okay, but no, I I remember your dad was visiting us. We lived far, far away from our family, our parents.

Liz: 3:40

And I was pregnant with number four. You were at work, your dad was visiting, he was downstairs taking a nap and I want it was a Friday night and I wanted to have this really wonderful meal with you and your dad and the kids, and so I was, of course, pregnant, because all of our stories are around being pregnant.

Ben: 3:57

Were you barefoot though.

Liz: 3:58

Absolutely yes. Actually, this time I really was barefoot.

Ben: 4:01

Just wanted to set the stage. That's hilarious. Glad we got that.

Liz: 4:04

And I had an apron on.

Ben: 4:05

Okay, wow, chickens in the yard. Well, no, we didn't. Was chickens in the yard.

Liz: 4:07

Well, we didn't have chickens but I was very hot because it was like the end of the pregnancy, it was like the end of summer.

Ben: 4:14

Yep, yep, okay, okay.

Liz: 4:16

And so I was making this meal and every burner was going, the oven was going, everything was going, and, lo and behold, I look over and our cute little dog that we had, which was a Yorkie poo named Deo. I look over and Deo, for whatever reason, he decided to lift his leg on our trash can and use the restroom. And I was like, are you kidding me? I'm so tired of bending over Any moms out there ever been at the end of your pregnancy. You're like I just I cannot pick up another toy. I'm not picking up any more laundry, Like you, just like it. Just it hurts right, Especially at the end of the day. So, anyway, this dog does this course.

Liz: 4:53

I put the dog outside and and I don't know why he even did that he's never done that before, but anyway he did it. So I had to clean it up. You know, get down there, clean it all up. Then we were potty training our second born and he had to go to the bathroom. He went running down the hall, didn't make it, went to the bathroom in the hallway and I remember coming to the hallway and I was so big and pregnant I was like there's no way I can leap over all of this, Like I'm not going to leap. I'm not a gazelle. Right now I look like one of those hippopotamuses from Disney and Fantasia, Like that's what I'm thinking. I'm like there's no way I'm going to leap over this. So, anyway, somehow I clean it up, I get him all cleaned up and the meanwhile your dad is taking a nap, which is fine. I you know it was fine. I didn't need him to come upstairs, but you call me. Why did you call me?

Ben: 5:44

Do you remember my car broke down. Well, I thought it, it wouldn't start car broke down.

Liz: 5:49

Well, I thought it, it wouldn't start.

Ben: 5:49

Yeah, Like I think the battery something was going on with the battery Battery died. So yeah, I called him and then I think he was going to come get me Right.

Liz: 5:54

Yeah, you called me. You said can you have my dad come down? Cause he didn't answer his phone, cause he was sleeping. So your dad had to go downtown to go meet you. And of course your dad wakes up, he gets going, he heads on down the interstate to meet you. Then I get a phone call and somebody in your parking lot, I guess, jumped you. Yeah, okay. So then it was calling your dad, telling him to come back. And so while all this is happening, I've got bubbling pots of food and stuff in the oven. I'm hot, I'm barefoot, literally barefoot, and pregnant. And your dad comes in the door and he could tell that I was like a little bit on edge.

Ben: 6:28

Flustered. Should we say flustered?

Liz: 6:30

Yeah, fatigued and distressed, that's what we're talking about here.

Ben: 6:34

You might have been a little fragile, is what you're saying?

Liz: 6:36

I was definitely fragile. And so I heard our little girl crying in her crib and he said what can I do? And I said you know what, can you just go check on her, cause she was waking up from her nap. And so your dad went in there and he was in there for a very long time probably 10 minutes and then you came home and I said hey, I don't know what's going on, but you need to go check on your dad. He's been in there in a while. And I was like don't even ask me, I'm so tired, I just I wish we had ordered pizza. So what happened?

Ben: 7:12

So my turn to take over, because this is where it gets really interesting. I came home, you were definitely flustered and I run back to find my dad who, lo and behold, had taken an entire box of the wet wipes and was wiping down our daughter, the rails, the walls, everything.

Liz: 7:28

Because but it wasn't working because it wasn't working.

Ben: 7:32

It's taken one by one, one by one well, our daughter decided to paint yes, the rails and the wall yes, yeah, and herself with her own poop yeah, it was terrible and I know if you've had kids, you've walked in on this situation.

Liz: 7:45

well, the two of them are like talking down the hall and it's kind of like whispering hush but like intense and I'm thinking what in the world is going on? Well, I was on this situation. Well, the two of them are like talking down the hall and it's kind of like whispering hush but like intense and I'm thinking what in the world is going on?

Ben: 7:53

Well, I was, yeah, I was like hey, this isn't working, We've got to pull in bigger guns here.

Liz: 7:58

And so I walk in to two dads, the dad and the grandpa, with wet wipes, and a daughter still covered in all kinds of things. She had painted herself very well and you know, this story is going to show up at her wedding because it's going to be payback. That's what it's going to be?

Ben: 8:14

No, it's going to be paintback. That's what it is. I don't think we would do that too.

Liz: 8:19

No, and she's going to hear this. But but I mean, God bless you guys. So of course I walk in and you're like we got it, Don't worry, Go finish dinner. And I said, guys, put her in the bathtub. That's the first thing you do, so you start the water, you put her in the bathtub. And then I was like wet wipes are not going to happen. Here's the cleaning. You need paper towels. Here's a trash can Like this is how this is going to happen. And then, and then what happened?

Ben: 8:44

Well then, she decided to have round number two and she pooped in the bathtub so god we just can't get away from potty humor. No, we cannot. That's why it's our one blessed mess, our one bm, our one bm, but I mean really with the territory I knew I remember thinking during all of that and I was physically tired like tired and I remember thinking in that one of these days I'm gonna laugh at the story.

Liz: 9:08

But today I'm telling the story and I'm still not really laughing at the story.

Ben: 9:11

No, I'm still feeling a little fragile. I'm laughing yeah.

Liz: 9:16

I love you.

Ben: 9:16

We need to make you a little more anti-fragile?

Liz: 9:18

I think so what are you going to do? Wrap me in bubble wrap? What?

Ben: 9:20

are you going to do? Well, no, that's actually working against the concept of it. Okay. We should go into it. We should go into the concept. Yeah, let's talk about it. This is good, yeah.

Liz: 9:29

And let's talk about how we got into this you and I were out on a date. Yeah, so you and I were on a date. This topic came up. I don't remember how it came up. I don't either, and then it became this very long discussion, and that just spurred you on to becoming a Mr Investigator and you put on your learner hat and went to town. Not me, Never, never you. And so then you've come to me and you're like this should really be an episode.

Ben: 9:55

Yeah. And got pretty jazzed about it.

Liz: 9:57

Yeah, you've done a lot of research on this. It's actually pretty fascinating.

Ben: 10:01

It is fascinating and this concept of anti-fragile that comes from a book and it's written by an author, nassim Tlaib. And the book is called Anti -Fragile. Go figure, but the definition of anti-fragile is pretty interesting. So it goes beyond like resilient or robustness, and it's more about the actual ability to get stronger when exposed to stressors. Right, okay, so anti-fragile means exactly the opposite of fragile. You need some discomfort, you need some friction in order to become stronger, and what's crazy is that none of the world's major languages have a word for that concept.

Liz: 10:52

Yeah, and that's crazy to me. When we were talking about this, I said so you're literally telling me that we do not have a word for what we're talking about, except for anti-fragile.

Ben: 11:02

Except for the antithesis right. So it's like we have fragile but we don't have a word that means anti-fragile. We just have to say anti-fragile.

Liz: 11:10

So interesting, we should make up one like servitarian.

Ben: 11:15

Well man, yeah, good call, I'll let you, I'll let you noodle on that you can get back to me, oh Lord. Maybe the listeners, they, they have a word they want to put in the comments.

Liz: 11:23

Oh yeah, put it in the comments, you might come up with one, that's right. I, you might come up with one, that's right.

Ben: 11:27

I love that. So let's go into a few examples, like where we see this concept of anti-fragile at play One your immune system.

Liz: 11:37

Oh yeah, that's so true.

Ben: 11:54

So if you don't allow your immune system to acquire germs and then have a response feedback to that and get built up from experiencing germs, you actually will suffer if you have exposure to germs in the future. So it's like you need that ability to experience. It get stronger, get better, and then the next time it happens, it gets stronger, it gets better. So there needs to be that stressor in order for them to build strength in your immune system yeah, and that's why it's okay for kids to get sick they get germs, get dirty.

Liz: 12:15

Yeah, get germs and get well, and I'm thinking how many colds do they say children need before they get to kindergarten?

Ben: 12:20

I forget the number but you know, we let our kids run around outside without shoes on oh yeah, of course, get some tetanus, get all the stuff. No, we didn't do that, oh my gosh, I hope so. Gee A little too fragile there. So that's one example where you see that in nature.

Ben: 12:38

And then I really like the second one, so this other one. There was this concept of biosphere that was done. I think it was in the 80s. It was called Biosphere. That was done. I think it was in the 80s. It was called Biosphere 2.

Liz: 12:50

There apparently was a first one that failed miserably, which our daughter informed us about Our 16-year-old daughter.

Ben: 12:55

She knew she was like oh yeah, I know all about this.

Liz: 12:58

And we both looked at her and went what? This is over dinner the other night. We're like you know about this, and and even mushrooms. Like you need mushrooms because of what mushrooms do.

Ben: 13:10

It was very interesting. So Biosphere 2,.

Liz: 13:12

I believe and hey, you're a fun guy.

Ben: 13:14

Oh my gosh.

Liz: 13:16

Wow, I had to throw that in there. Well, just well. Okay, sorry I broke the train of thought. Okay, keep going.

Ben: 13:24

So Biosphere 2 was an experiment and what we Basically? It was an entire enclosed system. So nothing was going in, nothing was coming out Right, and so they were trying to figure out how we could get, maybe life on another planet. That was one of the ideas for this experiment.

Liz: 13:36

Wait time out. So is it like in a globe?

Ben: 13:39

Yeah, like a big sphere or half sphere. It's like a dome and they allow sunlight in, but it was completely controlled um outside of. You know the sunlight coming in?

Liz: 13:52

So this is like the Truman show yeah, almost yeah, exactly Something like that.

Ben: 13:56

I think it was the eighties Wild, but the point of us saying this is that in this experiment they they grew trees inside the dome right and they try to introduce animals and stuff like that, I believe. But one of the things that happened that they noticed with the trees- is since there was no strong winds, that the root systems from these trees were actually shallow and the trees fell over.

Liz: 14:21

Right.

Ben: 14:22

And collapsed from their own weight. Because, they didn't have the resistance to grow against Because there were no stressing factors on the root system and the root system didn't grow strong.

Liz: 14:34

Dude, that is so deep, there was no wind.

Ben: 14:37

There was no wind to buffer the tree and make it stress the roots, where the stress response then made the roots go deeper. So, because there wasn't that, the tree couldn't support its own weight.

Liz: 14:49

Makes me think of Psalm 1, one of my favorite Psalms. Anyway, we're not talking about that, but keep going. This is good.

Ben: 14:55

So, and then here's another crazy example of something like that in nature, with this kind of anti-fragile response. Did you know that buffaloes when there's a storm out on the plains?

Liz: 15:07

they yeah. They don't run away from the storm Right right, they turn into it.

Ben: 15:12

They turn into it.

Liz: 15:13

It's wild.

Ben: 15:14

That is wild.

Liz: 15:15

There was a bunch floating around on social media about that.

Ben: 15:18

Yeah, and the idea is that you get through the storm quicker by running into it.

Liz: 15:23

Which makes sense yeah.

Ben: 15:25

But I mean, wow, what a metaphor. Like, instead of running away from the storms of our life, like running through them, yeah Well, and turning.

Liz: 15:33

I mean turning and having the wherewithal to go ahead, be like a buffalo and just head into the storm and know you're going to hit it, but know you're going to get through it.

Ben: 15:44

Yeah.

Liz: 15:44

I mean, that's another deep thing.

Ben: 15:47

That is very deep. Yeah, you can unpack that for a while. Okay, so one last thing here for another natural example muscle growth.

Liz: 15:53

Oh yeah.

Ben: 15:54

Okay. So if there's no stressors on your muscles, they actually won't grow. So what I mean by that is when you use them and you stress them and they have micro tears, they they get rebuilt bigger and better the next time. So if you don't use your muscles to that stressor point, you actually don't get bigger muscles, They'll become stronger. So you need that anti-fragile system in your muscles to actually grow stronger.

Liz: 16:21

And all the women who are going through perimenopause and menopause say amen, because we all got to be strong. We don't want osteoporosis. So what you don't have an amen for that.

Ben: 16:32

Amen, A woman actually.

Liz: 16:35

Benjamin, sorry.

Ben: 16:36

Okay, speaking of, yes, scriptural references for this concept, you might be asking yourself is that in the Bible? We think so. Yeah, we do.

Liz: 16:47

We do think it's in the Bible.

Ben: 16:48

Do you want to take that first verse?

Liz: 16:49

Sure, I'll take the first one. This is James 1, 2, 3, 4. It says consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. I do love that verse that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

Ben: 17:10

I do love that verse.

Liz: 17:11

That's a hard one. It is. I do love it.

Ben: 17:12

It's hard because it's talking about hard things.

Liz: 17:15

It is, and I use that verse a lot with my business, to be honest.

Ben: 17:18

But in some ways, that's the anti-fragile concept right there. Consider it pure joy. Why would we consider trials of many kinds?

Liz: 17:27

pure joy. Because of what?

Ben: 17:28

you get out of them Right. Trials of many kinds, pure joy because of what you get out of them Right. So if you never had trials, would you really even test your faith? Would it even really prove perseverance in your life?

Liz: 17:38

It's a good question.

Ben: 17:39

I don't know, I don't think it would. I think we are made to be anti-fragile, even in our spiritual relationship with the Lord, where we need those stressors in order to build something of character strength. So it's kind of an intense thing.

Liz: 17:55

It is. It's very intense, but I love that too, because in the end it's going to be mature and complete, not lacking anything, Not like yeah, that's crazy.

Ben: 18:04

So stress as a way to not lack anything.

Liz: 18:07

Yeah.

Ben: 18:08

Yikes, I know, I don't know if that would preach very well, I mean, I'm having a hard time with it just now. So what's the next one here? So Romans 5, 3 through 5. Let's just read that. So not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance, perseverance, character and character, hope. So again, it's kind of reinforcing that idea that we should embrace our sufferings because of what it produces, right?

Ben: 18:40

So, that anti-fragile system, I think is found in the Bible, and as it relates to our spiritual formation, as it relates to our spiritual formation, and so I think we've got a couple of stories about this anti-fragile.

Liz: 18:55

You need to tell the one of what you did as a teenager.

Ben: 18:59

That's a hard lesson.

Liz: 19:00

That was a hard lesson Because you just told that one to some of our kids.

Ben: 19:04

We did yeah Right before this we were talking about. That Still brings up some interesting feelings for sure. So I have a story of when I was a teen.

Ben: 19:16

I was probably 16, 17, somewhere in there, and I drove a Bronco too. It was my dad's old car that he'd given me or let me drive, and he liked that car. He loved that car actually, and he was kind of sad to let me take it, but he knew I needed a car to drive around. One thing, though, that he did tell me was that it was old and it was not a mud bogging vehicle. It did have four wheel drive and it looked like it could be a mud bogging vehicle. It did have four wheel drive and it looked like it could be a mud bogging vehicle, and this was at a time in my life where I was kind of testing some boundaries. So, lo and behold, we have a lake that every 20 years it just disappears.

Liz: 20:03

It's wild. It literally is so wild because you can walk out to the bottom of the lake there's like a sinkhole that opens up, there's literally like no water left.

Ben: 20:11

Sucks all the water out. It's wild yeah.

Liz: 20:13

It's a phenomenon.

Ben: 20:14

It's a Florida thing. We got wild stuff in Florida.

Liz: 20:16

What can we?

Ben: 20:16

say so. Anyways, me seeing this happen, me having a four-wheel drive vehicle, but my dad saying hey, don't get any ideas. Guess what? I got some ideas.

Liz: 20:29

Yes, you did. And then what happened?

Ben: 20:31

So I went out to the dry lake bed with a buddy of mine and we tried to go mud bogging and we got stuck, unfortunately, all the water wasn't quite drained out of all the mud yet. So we found a little mud spot and got stuck and I had to shove a carpet underneath the tires to get out. I mean it was kind of wild. We were stuck for probably a good hour and eventually got out. The problem was, when we got out the vehicle no longer made it out of first gear.

Ben: 21:02

So, we were in first gear permanently.

Liz: 21:04

Yep Ruined your car.

Ben: 21:06

So I drove home very defeated, knowing that I disobeyed my dad and oh, by the way, I had just won a website contest. I thought I was hot stuff. I won 500 bucks. It was the city of tallahassee, uh website um competition, and I entered and I won, and I don't remember the exact department or whatever, but it was from the city.

Ben: 21:36

Yeah, I've got a city and so I got 500 bucks and I, I mean as a 16 year old 17 year old was 500 bucks in my pocket I thought I mean, you won the lottery pretty much yes.

Liz: 21:47

And so what happened?

Ben: 21:49

So I came home and told my dad.

Liz: 21:52

Yep.

Ben: 21:52

And obviously he was upset.

Liz: 21:53

Oh yeah, and then what did you have to do?

Ben: 21:56

And he told me well, son, all that money that you got, you know it's going to go right to fixing the vehicle, Okay, and that was a hard lesson to learn, very hard lesson to learn. My dad could have said, hey, I'm sorry that happened, but maybe we can split it or do something, but literally all the money that I had just won, went right into it, went right to the vehicle. Yeah, and I don't even think that paid for all of it actually.

Liz: 22:21

Probably not. Not for what you did, yeah.

Ben: 22:23

It was a hard lesson. I felt really low, Rachel, but anyways it was a hard lesson I fell really low, go real high and then go real low. But I have to say, learning that lesson taught me so much. Taught me so much about the value of money, number one. Number two the value of obedience.

Liz: 22:41

Right.

Ben: 22:41

And also a little bit of peer pressure, because I have a feeling I was showing off a little bit with my buddy and. I probably wouldn't have made such a snap decision.

Liz: 22:50

I think I remember the buddy that you were with so, but you learned a lesson there.

Ben: 22:55

I did I did and that and that.

Liz: 22:57

That gross.

Ben: 22:58

Yes, and I think that's kind of a little bit of the point we want to make is that our kids are actually hardwired to be anti-fragile, where we are made to rub up against resistance, figure it out and be better for it. And that was a time in my life where I did that and it shaped like who I was to become.

Liz: 23:21

Right, you grew up that day.

Ben: 23:23

I did, and a little bit yeah, not a lot, but a little bit. I grew up in, you know, different, some different ways.

Liz: 23:29

Well, and also, I'm just thinking that us parenting, you know, there's a lot of times that we are faced with some decisions on if we're going to let these kids really feel the brunt of their decisions or not. Sweep in and save them or let them figure it out, and we've had to make some hard choices. We had. But it was because it was good for them. Right In the end.

Ben: 23:50

Right, right, it was a good lesson to learn. Yeah, 100%, and I think that that helped me kind of set that own pace with our kids, like learning that I had to overcome something. And you know, my dad let me walk through that and I'm thankful, actually, that he did. I'm thankful that he did make me pay for it and it was. I mean, he should have. It was my mistake and it was my doing, but it was still a hard, hard lesson to learn. What about you? You got some lessons.

Liz: 24:18

Oh, I do. I was just thinking about um in my business a lot of times, um I would. It was this concept of going for no. So, my business was in sales with a that's a book right.

Liz: 24:31

Yeah, it is actually with a beauty company and so I had to learn how to basically go against all the resistance, to build resilience in myself, and so being in sales if any of you are in sales, you know what I'm talking about because you put yourself out there and it's like, okay, nobody's saying yes, and this is really embarrassing. But I believe in what I'm doing. I love this product. I believe it's going to help others, and so this concept of going for no, it's like you go through all the no's to get to the yes. Now there is a book it's called go for no and maybe we can link it. Um, it'll be on Amazon, right, we're going to do that.

Ben: 25:08

Okay.

Liz: 25:09

And so a great book, quick read. It's only like maybe 70 pages or something, so it's something that you could probably read within an hour or so. Uh, but what I would do in my business? Literally, I would sit down, I would make a hundred bubbles, circles, and I would make 100 attempts, because I can control how many attempts I can make, but I can't control whether people are going to say no or yes.

Liz: 25:33

But, I got to that place where I knew that if I got at least every out of every 10 attempts, I would get nine no's and one yes.

Ben: 25:42

Oh interesting, you got it down to a formula.

Liz: 25:43

Uh-huh, I did because working in my business and so after doing this, year in and year out, building my customer base, building basically my business what I found is that I had to go into this like a buffalo, go straight into the storm and make the decision that Did you have horns no, oh my gosh.

Ben: 26:05

Wow Okay.

Liz: 26:07

Listen here, mr Mud Bogger. Yeah, I'm onto you, but anyway, I had to do this in order to build my business. And going for no, you really cannot be fragile in that. You build a resilience, and so what has come out of that, after 14 years of building my business, is I'm okay because I didn't take it personal anymore.

Ben: 26:29

Would you say that you needed the nose, you needed the friction in order to be confident?

Liz: 26:35

Well and to be confident to get to the yes. And then when the yes came, it was so much more sweeter, Like it was just, it was wonderful to get the yes you know to make the appointment and or to make the sale.

Ben: 26:47

Do you think people just sometimes give up before they even get the opportunity for the yes?

Liz: 26:54

Absolutely. I mean in any area of life. This doesn't just have to be you know within what my circumstances, but I coached a lot of people on my team and they would give up. And I'm like, if you just keep going, you will see the results.

Ben: 27:07

So is it a little bit like crack when you get that first? Yes, you just want more.

Liz: 27:12

Oh Lord, have mercy.

Ben: 27:13

I mean not that I know what that's like. Yeah, what the heck are you? What a terrible scenario.

Liz: 27:18

Yeah, let's find something else, like caffeine?

Ben: 27:22

Sure, it's even worse, oh my gosh, yeah, sure, it's even worse.

Liz: 27:27

Yeah, how about the first time you give kids cotton candy and they're like oh, I want more.

Ben: 27:39

It tastes so good, I mean, I feel like that's a better example, than, anyway, what are we talking about?

Liz: 27:43

Okay, so the point that you, you want resist. It's good to have resistance and also, too, I find that when you go through things, when you are faced with trials and tribulations, when you are in the presence of others who are walking through that, there because you have this resilience, they connect with you. There is a an understanding that maybe, if you just everything was always so easy, people just do not understand. I will also say more authenticity.

Liz: 28:11

But I will also say too, that if you have people who that you're around that have never experienced anything hard whatsoever, they're totally unrelatable.

Ben: 28:19

Like it's just they don't have compassion or empathy.

Liz: 28:22

Yes, I agree, right, and what is that scripture that you read? I think it was out of Isaiah, or maybe it was out of Psalms.

Ben: 28:30

Oh, it was good for me to be afflicted so that I might learn your statutes. That's in Psalms.

Liz: 28:33

Psalms Okay.

Ben: 28:34

And that man. That verse has come back so many times in the last year, just in our life. But yeah, you're right, like it's good for that affliction to happen so that I might learn your statutes.

Liz: 28:47

Talking about the Lord.

Ben: 28:54

Talking about the Lord. It's David, I believe, but that's such a crazy perspective. I was glad or it was good for me to be afflicted so that I might learn your statutes, and I think that's kind of exactly seeing the nose almost as fuel in order for you to grow in your business.

Liz: 29:08

Yep and I ended up having a very successful business.

Ben: 29:11

Yeah.

Liz: 29:12

Because I was the buffalo that turned into the storm.

Ben: 29:14

And you went for it.

Liz: 29:15

Without horns.

Ben: 29:18

I don't know your horns come out sometimes.

Liz: 29:19

Stop Moving on, moving on.

Ben: 29:22

Let's talk about it so what can we take, like, let's talk about a few practicals with raising kids to be anti-fragile, like we've talked about?

Liz: 29:31

what anti-fragile.

Ben: 29:32

The concept is we talk about even our own life, related it to one story about me being a kid. Um, but like what? Like today's parenting culture, right, oh? Yeah we don't want them to get. We don't want them to get hurt, we don't want them to experience any kind of danger. You know we're so paranoid about strangers that you know we keep our kids like indoors and under a watchful eye all the time. And you know, sometimes we trade out some physical play for screens because we think screens are safer.

Liz: 30:04

Oh boy, okay, that's going to be an episode that we're going to have to get on another day because this is a hot topic.

Ben: 30:11

We got news for you it ain't safer.

Liz: 30:13

It is not safer and at some point in time, we're going to tackle this because this is definitely something that we need to talk about what you just said, but we're talking about fragile and anti-fragile. We'll go for another hour that will go for a whole another couple hours, if we get onto that.

Ben: 30:25

That would go for a whole nother couple hours. Oh man, If we get onto that that's a deep dive. That's it. Yeah, so, okay. So let's break it down. So we've got some physical examples of how to build anti-fragile kids right. Here's a real simple one. Let them climb trees.

Liz: 30:40

Ooh, I have a funny story about that real quick.

Ben: 30:43

Okay, let's hear it.

Liz: 30:43

So do you remember when we went to Williamsburg, virginia, last year? And yeah, okay, our kids can be sometimes like the Von Trapp family, not just because there's a bajillion of them, but I mean, they're up in trees, like. They're just like, oh, there's a climbing tree and the shoes come off and they're up the tree, like it's just how it is. So we were in Williamsburg with your parents and having a wonderful family vacation, which we're enjoying. We're at the Colonial Williamsburg, so it's like really cool, you should go visit if you've never been. Great American history. Anyway, we're waiting for the trolley and there's a great climbing tree and what do our kids do? They take their shoes off and they're up, high up in the tree. Now, I'm used to our kids climbing, you're used to our kids climbing. The grandparents are pretty much used to it, but all the other grandparents because we were the only ones with kids this day, none of them are used to the kids climbing, and so there were people freaking out around us and so I had to go over.

Ben: 31:36

Yeah, because they were pretty high. Yeah, a little too high for comfort.

Liz: 31:42

Some of them yeah, Some of them were Not all of them, but I'm like, hey guys, I need you to come down from the tree. And then when they came down, they're like mom, we were fine, why don't we have to get down? I'm like everybody else didn't think so. They're about to call the fire department.

Ben: 31:52

We need to teach those grandparents about anti-firing. Oh yeah, good luck, so within reason, right, but like, let them experience a little bit of dangerous play. I think that's kind of the concept. Like kind of the concept Like, don't be so quick to keep them from every danger, allow them to experience reasonable danger.

Liz: 32:13

Right yeah, as long as they're not like in serious harm's way. Exactly Well, and there's also all this development stuff that's out there about when kids children are, you know, balancing, or they're up high and they feel the sway, or you know I'm just talking about this because of a tree, but there's so much that happens where they experience the limit of their bodies and that's part of their development.

Ben: 32:36

And so, if we?

Liz: 32:36

keep right. It's how they learn and we keep keeping them from that experience because we're so afraid they're going to fall off two feet. How are they learning? I'm just saying how are they learning? Okay, moving on.

Ben: 32:47

So another one is allow them some rough play right With one another, Some rough housing.

Liz: 32:54

Okay.

Ben: 32:55

And on top of that here's one that can kind of go along with it.

Liz: 32:59

Well, I'm just hold on. Of course you put rough play in there. I mean, you are the dad, you're the dad, dad, you're the dad. What? Yes, and your mom and I would agree, and my mom would agree that sometimes it's a little like, especially with boys, but you know what? They're having so much fun and they're just tumbling. It makes me think of Swiss Family Robinson when they're roughhousing.

Ben: 33:19

Yeah, let's get back to some of that, right? I mean it's okay to roughhouse, I know, you know it can get out of hand it can but that's the point, right. Let it get out of hand a little bit. Let them experience the limitations of getting into the rough part of roughhousing so that they can find limits. And when you find the limits, that's where growth happens.

Liz: 33:43

Right, I agree.

Ben: 33:44

That's where you learn the next time. Hey, that kind of hurt when we went that far.

Liz: 33:49

Yep.

Ben: 33:50

And so I guess that's the point right. It's like we try to keep our kids in comfort, away from danger, so much so that sometimes we just don't know our limits Right, and that's actually not a good thing. No, it can be a bad thing.

Liz: 34:03

What about when you used to wrestle with your brother? Yeah, oh man, let's bring that up.

Ben: 34:10

Yeah Well, my brother. He was actually a lot stronger than me as related to how old I was right. So when he was in 10th grade, when I was in 10th grade, he was just so much stronger. I was two and a half years older, so I think he was a sophomore. I was a senior and I went to wrestle with him in high school.

Liz: 34:34

He was on the wrestling team oh, I didn't even realize he was working out. He was on the wrestling team yeah, like you wore one of those singlets and everything I don't know about all that, I never I never.

Ben: 34:43

I don't think I ever saw him.

Liz: 34:44

Benjamin.

Ben: 34:45

That's pretty bad on me.

Liz: 34:48

Okay, keep going, Sorry brother.

Ben: 34:50

But I remember the day that I tried to take him down wrestling Uh-huh and he was bigger than me. He was actually bigger than me in 10th grade, I think. Yeah, he'd surpassed my weight and he was just physically bigger and stronger.

Liz: 35:05

He was bulking up.

Ben: 35:07

He was bulking up and I could still take him for a little while when he had, when he caught me size wise. But I remember the day where I tried to take him down wrestling and all of a sudden the tables turned and I could no longer take him down and said he was on top and he was like pindya it was like oh shoot just like Nala in. Lion King Pindja.

Liz: 35:29

Pindja, pindja. Yeah, I forgot where I was going with all that, but anyways, well, anyway, roughhousing.

Ben: 35:33

Roughhousing, yeah, and to go along with that. I guess the thing about physical play right is we don't have to rescue them from every minor injury, right? We want to be sensible. We want to make sure they're safe from doing something catastrophic, but at the same time, we actually need them to figure out their own limitations. We need them to bump up against some of their limitations, experience the pain of maybe making mistakes because of those limitations, and to learn through that process.

Liz: 36:02

Yep, it's a learning process. It is, it is.

Ben: 36:05

And I mean, yeah, that's how we get better. What about emotional anti-fragility?

Liz: 36:12

Well, I just watched an episode on when Calls the Heart.

Ben: 36:16

Oh, it's your favorite show.

Liz: 36:18

It was about this. The girls and I like watching it. We make a cup of tea and turn it on.

Ben: 36:23

Surprisingly, the boys don't always watch it.

Liz: 36:26

Actually they've enjoyed it A few.

Ben: 36:28

Yeah, a few of the boys have.

Liz: 36:30

They come in, they trickle in, but anyway. So on this particular episode, one of the characters was falling in love with this one boy and it was obvious that he was not into her, like she was into him. And so the teacher tried to have a conversation with her to kind of like navigate and help her navigate her heart. And she wasn't going to listen to it. And so eventually the girl went to the boy and like, asked him to go up on a picnic and he turned her down and her heart was broken. And so in the whole episode, what was playing out as I was watching with the girls which was really great because it brought up some conversation topics between the girls and I, which I wasn't ready to have, all those conversations, but since it was presented but no, in all seriousness, like she wanted to prevent this young lady from having her heart broken because she knew that the boy wasn't into her but she had to learn it on her own.

Liz: 37:24

She had to learn the hard way she had to learn the hard way, so pretty good episode.

Ben: 37:28

Yeah, and you don't, I mean you don't want your kids necessarily like just to go headlong into some of those experiences, but again it's that sometimes we learn the best through pain.

Liz: 37:39

Yep, I know I'm like that. I mean I want wisdom and I want you know, but sometimes it's like how do you get the wisdom, though? Right From myself, but I'm saying like I want people to speak into the situation and give me wisdom. I mean, maybe that's part of me maturing and growing older, but you know, sometimes there's some things where people that I've I've heard them say and it's like yeah, yeah, yeah, and then when I'm faced with it, I still think my own way and then pursue it and discover gosh, they were right, Humble pie.

Ben: 38:08

Humble pie, humble pie, yeah, so okay. So that's pretty interesting, so experiencing disappointments. One other thing too, as parents, we can do is don't always be quick to intervene in social conflicts. So if there is a conflict socially between kids, you mean within the family or within other kids. It could be both. It could be both contexts, right? So if there's something happening, maybe give your kid the benefit of the doubt, as long as you're saying that it's not heading in a harmful direction.

Liz: 38:40

So you're going to preference that.

Ben: 38:42

But maybe you start asking some leading questions. Maybe just don't intervene so quickly. But as they mature, as they start to grow, maybe you're less and less kind of hands-on, maybe you take your hands off and you kind of see how they work it out.

Liz: 38:56

Well, we've done that in our parenting because there's arguing, that goes on. I mean, when you have a household with people, there's going to be moments, and that's okay. Conflict is good. It's how you handle the conflict. And so I think there's times where you and I have stepped in, but then there's times where, like, just let it be, or that famous line, y'all figure it out, or I'm going to figure it out for you and you better believe they figure it out right.

Liz: 39:23

They don't always like it when we figure it out nope, and so they better quickly resolve their conflict and figure it out now. There has been times where we have had to bring the party into our room and yep, you know guide them yeah and have a conversation and you know, because they just can't get over the hump, for whatever it is, especially as they've been developing as teenagers with all the hormones and the sensitivities and all the emotions, all the things, all the things.

Ben: 39:50

That's okay. So yeah, emotions right.

Liz: 39:53

Right.

Ben: 39:53

Like teaching them how to process those emotions too. I think that's important Not just avoid negative emotions, but when you have them, what do you do with them?

Liz: 40:01

Right, exactly.

Ben: 40:03

How do you let those emotions help guide you to a better, mature place, right? So, instead of running from them? You know why, don't? Yeah, I guess, like, how can we help our kids understand what they are, why they're having those emotions? And then what you can do to kind of let those emotions guide you back to a place of maturity, not stay in those emotions.

Liz: 40:28

True, but I also just want to say, sometimes with teenage young ladies, okay, I'm out of my element Way over there. Sometimes I just need a good cry. Yeah, I mean, that happened, what just a week ago? And we had a daughter who was just. She just needed a good cry and I saw myself in her, because there's sometimes I just need a good cry. I don't even know why I'm emotional.

Ben: 40:52

I'm just emotional. I need a good cry every now and then. No you're solid as a rock. What are you talking about? I'm a softie.

Liz: 40:59

You actually are a softie, I did. But even in the midst of that, like saying hey, you know, she was just crying and I said you know what's going on? Why are you crying? She's like I don't know, I'm just emotional, and I thought, well, I know why you're emotional. The writing's on the wall. If you have teenage daughters, you understand. But anyway, and then she just cried, I just held her and then we started teaching moment for both of us to actually look at what's going on here. Why am I feeling this way? So, yeah, that's good, that's good.

Ben: 41:36

Okay, maybe the last topic here.

Liz: 41:38

What is?

Ben: 41:38

it In our anti-fragility for kids spiritual anti-fragility.

Ben: 41:44

Good. So one of the things that we like to do with our kids is ask them hard questions. Yep, we like to kind of put, put it out there, like so some of the more intense topics within faith. We like to talk about them, we like to discuss them. You know, whether it be, I don't know, matters of racism or diversity, once saved, always saved, giftings with different denominations believe about different things. We try to bring it up, we try to have healthy discussions and we try to set the stage where it's like no question is a dumb question, and even the question of faith in particular, right, like some doubts, like let's not run away from it, let's expose it in our family setting and tackle it together, and so I think that is a good way to help bring some anti-fragility into your kid's spiritual development.

Liz: 42:46

Well, and so they're not shocked. Yes, Either Right. I mean we need to be having these conversations we would rather have them be shocked at our home. Yes.

Ben: 42:52

Than out of the world. Well, and, and I'm thinking, of sex ed and family devotions right, oh Lord, of course he brought that up, that was last episode.

Liz: 43:00

Wow, if you want to hear a shocker.

Ben: 43:02

Go to the last episode.

Liz: 43:04

And I just listened to that episode and I was.

Ben: 43:06

You were shocked, weren't you?

Liz: 43:07

I was shocked again. I was really really.

Ben: 43:12

But I guess the point is is like we want them, at the end of the day, to develop their own faith and so we can start asking some of those wrestling questions in our own home where we can help bring some guidance, and so we want them to struggle. I know that sounds weird. We want them to struggle with the concept of faith while they're at home.

Ben: 43:35

And so we want them to just, I guess, wrestle with some of those questions and have those discussions with us, with their siblings, with other friends, and we try to foster some of that. So another thing is that we try to bring that concept of trials as growth. So back to our scripture references that we spoke about earlier, let's reframe when we're, when the kids are going through tough times and they're going through something hard. Let's just not focus on the hardship. Let's focus about what's happening while they're going through the hardship.

Liz: 44:14

Now, what do you mean? What's happening?

Ben: 44:15

What's being developed in them?

Liz: 44:17

Oh, you mean a character. What's the?

Ben: 44:18

opportunity for a character change in the midst of the hardship.

Liz: 44:24

Well, I'm just thinking. I mean, can I share an example?

Ben: 44:26

I'm just thinking.

Liz: 44:27

Recently there was a situation that was happening among the girlfriends of one of our daughters and it was, you know, pretty. One of the friends wasn't being nice to our daughter and there's just like this consistency over a week or two and it was hurting our daughter and I just said, hey, let's take a second and let's put ourselves in her shoes and think about what she's going through, and it just helped to give empathy. But that was what was being built in our daughter understanding and I said honestly, let's just pray for her and wouldn't you know it? Within a day everything was back to normal, you know.

Liz: 45:03

Um right and so, but I saw a character, character being developed, developed in our daughter. Yeah, yeah.

Ben: 45:10

Yeah, going through something a little difficult, and one of the things, too, that I think we've done even recently is just invited them into some of our own struggles.

Liz: 45:19

Absolutely Right.

Ben: 45:20

We're like, we're not perfect, we're not going to try to put on airs. Nope, and instead of like beating around the bush or trying to hide something that mommy or daddy is going through, like why not just talk about it Now? Obviously you got to be, you know, sensical and use age appropriateness.

Liz: 45:35

Right, absolutely.

Ben: 45:36

But if it's something that you can share with the family and talk about openly your own struggles, maybe you have your own doubts, right.

Liz: 45:45

Right.

Ben: 45:46

And just bring that before the family, not obviously trying to instill doubt in them, but talk about how you dance around your own doubts or how you overcome your own doubts and what you do, and I think that's important because it allows them to see you as authentic.

Liz: 46:01

Well, yeah, true and relatable and relatable, that's what it is. Yeah, and we, you know, we, I hope we're building that within our kids. We work hard on that.

Ben: 46:11

Yeah, we really do. Yeah, we do Try to be as open and transparent as possible. So, yeah, I think those are some three key areas where trying to develop anti-fragility in your children is important and practical and Build grit. Yeah, build some grit. That's a good analogy. Build some grit. There's a book by angela duckworth oh, yeah, grit, yes, yes and another uh book, as it relates to spiritual anti-fragility, is called raising passionate jesus followers, and that's by phil and diane comer, and, uh, that's another good one.

Ben: 46:55

So what are what are some, I guess, takeaway verses that we've got for today?

Liz: 46:59

all right, I I'm excited about these verses. The first one is second Timothy uh for verse uh. Chapter one, verse seven. It says for God. This is one of my most favorite verses. It's for God has not given us a spirit of fear, but a power, love and a sound mind. Sound mind.

Ben: 47:14

I like that, and Proverbs 24, 10 says if you falter in a time of trouble, how small is your strength? So that kind of goes back to that anti-fragility concept. Right, we want strength that supersedes our own times of trouble. Yes, and the only way I feel to build that strength is to go through some trouble, some smaller troubles hopefully, so that in the day of trouble you can stand. So we need a little resistance.

Liz: 47:42

We need a little wind. We do. We need some fungus.

Ben: 47:48

Some bacteria, some germs. I need some fungi in my life. I need to rip up my muscles.

Liz: 47:52

Rip them on up.

Ben: 47:53

Yeah, get strong. We need to be like Buffalo and turn right into the storm and go for no, that's right.

Liz: 48:00

And not be noodles.

Ben: 48:01

Man, I think you just threw all of the analogies in the one sentence.

Liz: 48:05

Take every bit of bubble wrap and pop it with Nerf guns.

Ben: 48:08

Oh yeah, Nerf gun war with bubble wrap and then put needles on the end of the darts. No, no, no.

Liz: 48:14

No, don't do that. But we do have Nerf gun wars in our house and they are epic and they are intense and Nerf gun wars in our house and they are epic and they are intense and there's a lot of pickup that comes afterwards.

Ben: 48:21

Oh, lots.

Liz: 48:22

I mean we have like a whole huge Trader Joe's bag of nothing but the Nerf gun bullets. Oh yeah, Like a whole huge bin of them and the kids just go to town. We also have paintball guns. How many paintball guns do we have, Ben? You put me on the spot. Um, a better question would be how?

Ben: 48:43

many paintball guns do we have?

Liz: 48:44

that work. I have no idea how many. Probably like two. Two out of how many guns?

Ben: 48:48

Two out of probably, like I don't know, like 20.

Liz: 48:50

We, I, that's okay.

Ben: 48:52

Yeah, I get a little.

Liz: 48:54

You think so?

Ben: 48:54

Collecting.

Liz: 48:55

Well, but the thing is is that we had a 10 yearyear-old's birthday who wanted to have a paintball gun war.

Ben: 49:00

We did, and I found a good deal, and you did find a good deal and you're resourceful, and then you became Epic Dad, and then we invited all the dads with their sons and it was very epic.

Liz: 49:12

But it was hilarious because who do you think, do you remember? Who do you think was more into it? The boys or their dads? You think was more into it the boys or their dads? You mean the boys or the boys? Yeah, you guys, it was hilarious because these dads were running around like in camouflage you would have thought it was a full-on war.

Ben: 49:30

May or may not have had a ghillie suit yes, I don't even know what that is I look like a bush yeah, he.

Liz: 49:36

Oh, yes, you do have that. Were wearing that, but it wasn't padded.

Ben: 49:41

No, no, I took it like a real man One person came in a total snowsuit. Yeah, they came in a snowsuit. They didn't want to get hurt.

Liz: 49:48

Yeah, they didn't. But what was so funny is after that resistant war of building endurance and being like a buffalo and our whole backyard with all these bases and you guys were playing catch up with the flag and everybody had radios with earpieces and all that it got a little intense.

Liz: 50:06

It got very intense, very competitive and all the wives, we were inside the house with all the other children running from one side of the house to the other side of the house, to the other side to watch all this war going on around our house. But the dads were really sore and I remember they were having to take Epsom salt baths, some had to go get massages, some went to the chiropractor. Yeah yeah, they're not little anymore, are they?

Ben: 50:32

Nope, nope, nope.

Liz: 50:33

But I do remember that that was funny.

Ben: 50:35

It was a good time. I know Low resistance training.

Liz: 50:37

So we're not going to take bubble wrap and shoot paintballs.

Ben: 50:41

No, we're just going to take it.

Liz: 50:42

We're just going to take it. We're just going to take it. Well, you guys, thank you so much for being a part of our One Blessed Mess today, and I want to say thank you so much for all of your messages, your emails, your DMs. We do have a website. It is wwwour1numeric1blessedmesscom. Of course, you can go there. There's like a contact area, you can reach out to us, and so we've gotten some, you know, some comments and questions from you guys, and we love it. You know, we are so thankful and so grateful. We're doing this honestly because we?

Ben: 51:17

why are we doing this Ben Like? Why are we?

Liz: 51:17

doing this podcast? Why are we doing this, Ben?

Ben: 51:18

Like, why are we doing this podcast? We're doing this because we thought, man, what would our younger selves love to have known, you know, from a couple like us. And so if we could go back in time and say, hey, here's what you need to know when you're just starting out with parenthood, or just starting out with kids, or even marriage, or maybe even business like, here's some things that you should know, and so we just wanted to serve the larger body of Christ and just be a resource, and not that we have all the answers.

Ben: 51:45

We don't.

Liz: 51:45

We're still learning things. No, we're not experts whatsoever.

Ben: 51:47

Yeah we're definitely not experts.

Liz: 52:01

But we've had a few life experiences and we just figured, hey, we might as well share. Well, and also, too, I mean I hope even today's subject just kind of gets people chewing on some things, because I mean, this, this whole thing came out of you and I having a coffee date and talking about a situation, and then next thing, I know it's like, okay, we're going to do an episode on this and so, um, you know, we really we really hope that it blesses you and we love hearing from you, we love seeing your comments. Um, please like this episode. If you could just hit the like button or the heart or the star or whatever it is, by the platform that you're listening to this on or watching, if you're on YouTube and then also to share, please pass this on to anybody that you think it would be valuable to them, because I know it has definitely been valuable for us. And follow us on Instagram.

Liz: 52:39

We do have a Facebook page our one blessed mess. Follow us there. Like us there. While there's a lot of following and liking, Sounds kind of funny and subscribe.

Liz: 52:48

Oh yeah, and subscribe like share, follow and subscribe. But we are so thankful that you were here with us today and we're so excited because we can't wait to see you and until next time. And so what we love to say is um, embrace your beautiful mess, because if our mess is blessed, then we know, so can yours. That's right.