Liz: 0:12

Welcome to our One Blessed Mess with Ben and Liz. We're here just telling our story of raising six kids in eight years and also having an entrepreneurial home with two businesses while raising four teenagers and, of course, having seven chickens and two dogs, you know, just to keep life interesting.

Ben: 0:31

But today's topic conversation is about what ben well, it kind of fits in line with today's theme, which is valentine's valentine's day happy v-day. Happy v-day happy love day y'all happy love day we're gonna try to keep it real loving here, because we're going to talk about this concept.

Liz: 0:54

Of marriage.

Ben: 0:55

Of marriage. Yes, we're going to talk about love. We're going to talk about love and marriage. Love and marriage, but also what an egalitarian and a complementarian are. Oh yeah, Big words we're even going to throw a third one in there. Big words yeah in our oh yeah and we're gonna, we're even gonna throw a third one in there. Big words yeah, but uh, yeah, we're gonna. We're gonna dive into something that's slightly controversial ben.

Liz: 1:16

Do you remember when we were getting married? It was like the week of our wedding and we I had you do a whole dance with me. Do you remember that? I don't know if I remember.

Ben: 1:28

You don't remember that yes, yes, wait, was it for our rehearsal? But that it we didn't end up doing it?

Liz: 1:33

but I I mean, we practiced for hours oh boy I just wanted to be in your space, really, so that's why I made you do this dance what made you think of that?

Ben: 1:42

love and marriage oh, that was love and marriage.

Liz: 1:46

That was literally the song. But what is? It goes together like a horse and carriage.

Ben: 1:51

Man, I have like a really vague memory of that.

Liz: 1:53

Yeah, well, it's been two decades, but I don't even remember all the choreography.

Ben: 1:58

I don't know if it's even a good memory.

Liz: 2:00

Well, gene Kelly and Ginger, you know we were trying.

Ben: 2:05

We were trying, it was a little white Christmas Not really at all you kind of got me white christmas. You kind of got me into dancing I did now, I was not a dancer before, no, you were not. No, I can swing, you can swing, dance. You guys go a little bit you should see us tango.

Liz: 2:22

Our kids are. They're like stop, just stop, mom and dad. So we actually go ballroom dancing, we try to go as often as we can. It's just kind of something that we do together.

Ben: 2:31

Yeah, man, I'm loving all these love topics.

Liz: 2:33

I know. Actually you're a really good dancer. Oh, thank you, you are. In fact, you guys, when we were getting married, we were learning ballroom dancing and you know where I'm going with this anyway and so he would come home or come from work.

Liz: 2:49

I would say, come home, because we weren't married yet, but he would come from work and meet me at the ballroom dance location where we're having lessons, and there were not enough partners and there were ladies that were my grandmother, my great grandmother's age and literally not kidding you guys they would line up and they would push me out of the way to dance with my fiance, and so we wanted to get a few dance lessons in before we got married so that we were comfortable out on the dance floor, and then also, too, for our honeymoon, because we were going on a cruise and we knew there was going to be dancing and all that.

Ben: 3:20

Yeah, yeah. But you know, to be fair to the older ladies, there were only so many men to go around Right. Not enough partners, definitely more women at these dance classes.

Liz: 3:28

Yeah, but around Not enough partners. Definitely more women at these dance classes. Yeah, but you could. Yeah, I definitely remember them like cutting in front of you. Oh, it was terrible. I remember like showing one lady my engagement ring and then, poor Ben, by the time I got to dance with him which, by the way, you smelled so nice, you're so handsome and smells nice you are a sweaty mess. Your whole back was nothing but sweat because you had been dancing nonstop. You didn't even get a break because it was like one right after the other. I'm glad you're laughing.

Liz: 3:54

Oh, my God, yeah, and so anyway, I love, I do love dancing.

Ben: 3:57

You just triggered another memory of oh no.

Liz: 3:59

What. Well you got to share now.

Ben: 4:02

I mean, we're already rolling, it's the fart story.

Liz: 4:04

Oh, no, ben Varan.

Ben: 4:06

You cannot. It's Valentine's Day. We might as well.

Liz: 4:09

Babe, Like seriously I mean.

Ben: 4:13

Really it's kind of it's a little bit. It's a little bit.

Liz: 4:16

This one's not planned, you guys.

Ben: 4:18

Oh man, I don't. I guess we're just going to go there.

Liz: 4:21

You have to now, we have to now, unless we, we're going to keep it, we're going to?

Ben: 4:28

Yeah, are we going to tell both of them, though I don't know.

Liz: 4:31

I'm so embarrassed. We should probably just go for it and tell both of them Okay, let's do it, let's do it. I'm really embarrassed right now.

Ben: 4:41

The first fart story.

Liz: 4:42

I'm thinking of. Do we have to share these stories?

Ben: 4:44

The first fart story I'm thinking of.

Liz: 4:46

I hate that word is when we were say expelled flatus, like my grandmother taught me expelled flatus.

Ben: 4:51

Or nobody says that I understand, but that's what she had to say.

Liz: 4:56

Spell flatus.

Ben: 4:57

I'm saying fart. Okay, gosh, are we going to get flagged for saying this, am I?

Liz: 5:01

You might have to be on the I don't know, I don't even understand all the things that you're not supposed to say anymore.

Ben: 5:09

But okay, well, anyways, let's get into the story. So I'm trying to lay the story. Do we have to? I came over to your place while we were dating.

Liz: 5:19

Oh, and your sisters are there. Yes, because you guys all live together. Yeah, we live together, all the sisters, and it was quite the venture.

Ben: 5:24

And this is this is when we were. I don't remember how many like months we were into dating, but it was probably. I think we were engaged. Yeah, we were probably engaged, I don't know.

Liz: 5:33

No, I don't know. I think we were engaged and I was visiting because I lived in another state and so I was visiting the sisters. Yeah, that sounds right. Why are we talking about this?

Ben: 5:41

So I was there and you were sitting on my lap and we were talking to one of your sisters and what did you do?

Liz: 5:49

what did you?

Ben: 5:49

do you gotta tell them no? I don't want to tell them what you did. Tell them what you did. You have to tell it. You're telling the story you pass gas on me. Thanks see, I didn't say fart, you pass gas on me, I did. It was just one of those things it was.

Liz: 6:03

You know that special time of the month, and so you're a little bit more flagellant is that the word well, it's definitely smelly. Okay, I did, it was just one of those things. It was that special time of the month and so you're a little bit more flagellant, is that the word?

Ben: 6:12

Well, it was definitely smelly.

Liz: 6:14

Okay, stop, benjamin. That is awful Great.

Ben: 6:18

So you did, you passed gas on me. This is supposed to be about love and Valentine's Day. You know we went from Valentine's Day to telling-.

Liz: 6:24

Okay, anyway, get to the point, so-.

Ben: 6:26

So you passed gas on me Right and I said and you have no sisters. I don't have any sisters he doesn't have any sisters, so he doesn't fully get it yet no, yeah, no, sisters, no grid for you know.

Liz: 6:37

Women, women doing that, because your mother never does that. Your mother's perfect. She doesn't.

Ben: 6:43

Oh mom, oh goodness, you know, I'm telling the truth, it's true, it's true, she doesn't, and so he doesn't have a grid for that.

Liz: 6:48

So you were in shock, he was in shock.

Ben: 6:51

I was shocked and I was like oh my gosh what in the heck Like this is what this is what guys do Not, not what girls do Okay, get onto the story, get on, get on.

Liz: 7:03

So I was like, don't do that and so and you can't help it, it was jokingly, you were flirty, whatever.

Ben: 7:06

Right and so then a little farther along what happens?

Liz: 7:10

Again, again, again. Thanks, ben Did it again. Yes, again.

Ben: 7:13

And what did I say?

Liz: 7:14

You said if you do that again, I'm going to pass gas on your face. And I was like what?

Ben: 7:21

You didn't believe me, did you?

Liz: 7:22

No, we're getting married.

Ben: 7:30

I'm thinking you like you would never do that to me that is, and my sisters were sitting there and they're like that's gross, like who does that?

Liz: 7:35

this is an egalitarian view, oh anywho. And so you know, I obviously again thanks, ben for bringing this up to the whole world.

Ben: 7:43

That's listening. You pass gas on me and what happened?

Liz: 7:46

I you're like that's's it. And your face changed and I thought oh shoot, he's telling the truth, he's going to pass gas on my face. So I got up and I took off and ran down the hall and I was going to try to lock myself in the bedroom.

Ben: 8:01

Yeah, that's right. You tried to lock yourself in your bedroom and you were there a hot second and I was like no. And, sure enough, I jumped on the bed. The bed, I guess.

Liz: 8:13

Yeah, you jumped on the bed and I literally jumped right on your face yes, well, you didn't jump on my face, sorry, I jumped you jumped, and then you turned around and you sat on your rear end on my face and what did he do?

Ben: 8:24

and I can't believe that I actually had to pass gas right at that moment. It was a beautiful thing. I mean, it was so beautiful.

Liz: 8:34

Just telling it again Happy Valentine's Day. I can't believe we're even talking about this. This was not the plan.

Ben: 8:41

Anyway. So what a story. Yeah, what a story.

Liz: 8:44

Anywho. So I was in shock. Of course. My sister's like that's disgusting, and I'm like I know, and I'm like this is so gross. And he's like I told you don't ever do that again.

Ben: 8:53

I think one part story is good enough for today, yeah.

Liz: 8:56

Okay.

Ben: 8:57

That was pretty intense. That was really intense, okay, so a good segue, I guess right Is like hey you know, women do it, men do it.

Liz: 9:06

There you go, yeah.

Ben: 9:07

We're just going for it. Wow, oh my gosh, all right. So anyways, what a story. I don't know if we can recover from that, but Our kids are going to hear this story, fyi. We've got to get to the topic. Okay, the topic is for today, not farting, although that was a good story.

Liz: 9:23

Past gas, not past gas, spe Spelling flatus.

Ben: 9:26

Egalitarian versus complementarian, and so we came across this topic because we read a book called the. Great Sex Rescue by Sheila Gregory, and we got a lot out of the book.

Liz: 9:39

Yeah, there was good there was definitely some good things, I mean of course, with every book, you eat the meat and spit out the bones, right, 100%, yeah, so it was good. It was good.

Ben: 9:47

Yeah, and we recommend it. We 100%. Yeah, it was good, it was good, yeah, and we recommend it. We recommend the book. But as we were recommending the book, we got some pushback. In fact, some of us were like, hey, I can't read this because the author is an egalitarian.

Liz: 10:03

Yep, which we didn't even know what that meant. We're like what, oh sure.

Ben: 10:10

Yeah, egalitarian. Yeah, oh yeah, it must be bad. So then we started looking, tell you, oh yeah. So then we started looking into it. So, yeah, we started looking into it and you know we were trying to figure out like, okay, well, what's the controversy here?

Liz: 10:17

and we're not even 100 sure that she is.

Ben: 10:20

Yeah, I mean, I think some of the things that she says in the book kind of lean that direction. Um, but she definitely recognized, you know, authority structure coming from the Bible and stuff like that, oh yeah. And so we were just, we were just a little confused as to why, uh, there was so much pushback on it, and so I'll just, we'll just go into kind of like what, what defines egalitarian, what defines complementarian, and then also talk a little bit about like kind of what we where we net it out as a couple.

Liz: 10:55

I like where we get as a couple.

Ben: 10:56

So let's kind of go through this a little quickly. So you want to, you want to talk about the egalitarian, okay?

Liz: 11:00

So an egalitarian.

Ben: 11:31

I so you want to talk of. The basic egalitarian viewpoint is that, you know, there's not this less than greater than in men and women in marriages, but we're equal because we're equal in Christ.

Ben: 11:47

Right so that's kind of the ultimate premise and they you know a lot of them would say there's not like the direct authority coming from the man in the relationship that the woman has to submit to all the time, that kind of thing. So that's kind of that viewpoint there, whereas the complementarian is maintaining that there is equality in worth but difference in roles and functions. So it's a little bit nuanced to kind of say that a couple of times and think that through what that actually means. But it's taking more of a literal approach to the passages about the wife's submission and male leadership. It restricts certain church leadership roles to men, emphasizes male headship in marriage and then sees gender distinctions as part of God's design for the family and church order. So some of that, you know, makes a lot of sense. It's kind of an obvious thing.

Ben: 12:48

If you're reading through the passages you kind of come across these and you're like, okay, yeah, that makes sense. So one of the things that we were noticing is like there's definitely scripture references, that kind of like back both of these positions, like you can read it and interpret it and think, oh yeah, that sounds like an egalitarian. Then you can read another passage and be like oh yeah, that's more complementarian. And so what did we actually? What did you come up with?

Liz: 13:08

Well, I came up with something Right. This forced us to get into the scripture. It did I mean this really forced us to get in there and study.

Ben: 13:15

Because we didn't want to like send people astray. We didn't want to recommend a book and then realize like, oh yeah, this author is just way off base or whatever. So we kind of dove into it. We're like, okay, well, what does this?

Liz: 13:31

what does it really mean to be one of these things? But what did you come up with? So, when we were discussing it and one of our morning discussions with hot cups of coffee, Without passing gas.

Ben: 13:38

Wow, anyway, I'm just going to push you, because I just want to push you. That's going to be a theme, I think.

Liz: 13:45

I literally cannot believe we talked about this. Anyway, I came up with a term. I said well, what about being a servitarian? And you know, that's not in all the literature, that's out there regarding this, but we kind of came up.

Ben: 13:58

That came right from Liz, yeah, it came from Liz.

Liz: 14:00

It was a Liz-ism. But, you know, we kind of came up with this what is a servitarian?

Ben: 14:04

Because but where does it put the focus, Like right?

Liz: 14:06

So like when you're talking about egalitarian and complementarian.

Ben: 14:10

The focus is like oh okay, we got to make sure we're viewing that role, to make sure it's like you know it's accurate, and there's like this right or there's this the leadership thing that you've got to make sure you're working out, or whatever.

Liz: 14:24

But when you're looking at it kind of this servitarian what do you put, yeah, what do you put the focus on the other person? Yeah, and serving the other person Right. A hundred percent yeah.

Ben: 14:35

Because, ultimately, who was that example that we would get that from?

Liz: 14:39

Oh, his name is JC. Jc, what's up? Jc For real Jesus.

Ben: 14:45

So I think, like that's the whole point. Is we see the example that Jesus gives yes and it's like, hey, we don't have to like get so hung up on. You know who's got to obey who in marriage and you know these kinds of things. Or is it more equal, really, when we put the focus off of ourselves and we put it on the other person, then that's where it makes the most sense, that's where we actually get. I think the most value in loving our spouse is when we love that spouse sacrificially.

Ben: 15:17

Because no greater love than this. A man lay down his life for his friend. Can't we just apply that to to our spouses, like when we lay down our lives for our spouses, like I feel like that's when the love comes alive.

Liz: 15:29

Well, and that's very, very true, because there was a moment in our marriage early on and I was not doing that. I was very much looking at what are you going to do for me, what, what, what is happening here? And it was actually kind of a scary time, and I feel like I can talk about it pretty like with authority and clarity right now, because it's been a long time.

Ben: 15:54

Right.

Liz: 15:54

But there was a time that I wanted out of this marriage. I did not want to be in this marriage Right, and I don't even think you had a clue.

Ben: 16:02

Yeah, I don't think I did actually.

Liz: 16:03

No yeah.

Ben: 16:04

Well, I didn't know, that was the. That was like what was in your heart. I knew like you were maybe disappointed, but I didn't know that. To like what extent, right, right.

Liz: 16:12

And what was going on was that I was basically looking at everything that you were doing wrong. I was looking at everything that was I was dissatisfied. That was making me dissatisfied. And you know you were working long hours, you were providing for the family, I was home with kids. You know there was this cycle that we were in and you know we were basically on an impasse. You know I wasn't fully. You know I didn't feel like I was fully being heard. I'm sure you didn't feel like you were fully being heard.

Liz: 16:43

And so, in the midst of all that, I was looking at other marriages and going well, that marriage has this and that marriage has that and I don't have that in my marriage. And so I was really beginning to think like I don't know if this is going to work out. I don't know what this is going to be and this is kind of heavy talking about this on Valentine's Day, but I didn't know. And so in the midst of it, I ended up going to a mom's group Bible study and the second time we met, I remember them saying because I went in disgruntled and I was just like ready to complain about my marriage and where it was at and I'm a positive person.

Ben: 17:20

Yikes must have been all that passing gas.

Liz: 17:23

Anyway, I'm just going to keep talking past that and I'm a positive person, so it must've been all that passing gas. Anyway, I'm just going to keep talking past that anyway. But, um, I remember the second week we were there, the topic came up on blessing our husbands and loving our husbands and I kind of was struggling with that. I was like what are you kidding me? And the challenge was to love your husbands for the next two weeks in ways that are their love languages and they're like we all know a husband's number one love language most husbands anyway and so they're like that.

Ben: 17:53

But you know, you know, did we maybe do an episode on some of that and family devotions? Is that what you're talking about?

Liz: 18:00

Oh Lord, kind of oh Ben.

Ben: 18:03

That's a throwback. There's an episode about family devotions. Sex ed family devotions.

Liz: 18:07

Yeah, yeah, anywho, but, um, you know it, it was look for ways to serve your husband. You know, beyond intimacy and I and when I say intimacy, I- mean between a husband and wife and I and when I say intimacy, I mean between a husband and wife, that's what we call it, we call intimacy, and so I did.

Liz: 18:25

I was looking for, you know, ways to serve you, like cooking your favorite meals, you know, just trying to make things easier when you came home, you know these kind of things. And so what was happening was my eyes were getting off of me and they were getting on a hundred percent serving you, and it wasn't like a master slave thing, it's not like the head of the house and you're the lower end of the house, like it wasn't that at all. But what was happening?

Ben: 18:52

was voluntary.

Liz: 18:54

What was happening was my heart was changing the process and literally there was a miracle that took place because I went from looking at all the negative, all the things that you weren't doing, to the things that you were doing, and and seeing it from a different perspective.

Liz: 19:08

And then I don't know if you remember this part or not, I don't know, but it was early on in our marriage when, when you go to bed at night because I'm a natural encourager, like I love to encourage people, and I was not encouraging you, like it was you walked in the door and I was already ticked Like I love to encourage people, and I was not encouraging you, like it was you walked in the door and I was already ticked, like I just was not happy and and so, as I was changing my perspective and finding ways throughout the day to serve and to love you, um, whatever that would look like, and you're actually quality time, um, but you also are, um, physical touch, you know, so, hugging you when you came in the door and you're kind of acts of service.

Liz: 19:45

I'm more acts of service.

Ben: 19:46

Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, I'm definitely yeah, coffee in the mornings.

Liz: 19:49

Coffee in the mornings. Man Found it. Yeah, it took 20 years, found the secret.

Ben: 19:53

Yeah, took 20 years To a better marriage. Make your wife coffee, put your laundry.

Liz: 20:05

Yeah yeah, that's gift giving too, anyway. So the point I'm trying to make is, when we were going to bed at night, after the kids were in bed, I would encourage you, as you were going to sleep at night, and I would say things like you're such a good provider, and I would point out the things that I knew about you, that I loved about you.

Liz: 20:18

You know, saying you're a good husband, you're such a good dad, and as you were falling asleep, literally, it was like my desire was to bless you as much as I could. Right and there was, and you have no memory of this, of course.

Ben: 20:32

I mean I can't say that I remember that falling asleep that's okay. Yeah, I re, I remember once. I, once I fall asleep, I'm kind of dead.

Liz: 20:39

Yeah, you are pretty dead, even when you have babies.

Ben: 20:43

This man can be asleep. Oh, it's so bad For real.

Liz: 20:46

No, you can be asleep, there can be a blowout of a child next to you. I mean, we're talking yellow blowout and you are screaming their heads off and you literally sleep through it. I'm like shoving you.

Ben: 20:59

Like.

Liz: 20:59

Ben, you need to wake up, and then you're like rolling over almost into the explosion in our bed at like two in the morning.

Ben: 21:08

It could be vomit and he sleeps right through it.

Liz: 21:09

Anyway, we all have our issues, it's okay. It's okay. We figured that out a long time ago. But the thing that I'm trying to get at is that, literally, a miracle happened in my heart where it was all about serving you. And there's this whole thing right now about gratitude serving you, and. And there's this whole thing right now about gratitude, yeah Right, and I. This is before the big trend of like the gratitude journals and you know this whole.

Ben: 21:29

I love that but this isn't anything. You're a forerunner.

Liz: 21:31

Yeah, sure, sure, I'll be a forerunner, but this was before, like you know, I knew any of that stuff. What was happening was I was looking for the good instead of looking for the bad, and I was looking at how I could serve you and love you, and my heart changed.

Ben: 21:45

So good.

Liz: 21:46

And it really did change and it started with me. It wasn't him making the change, it was me making the change. It really does work, and we weren't seeing a counselor. I wasn't confiding in anybody. This was literally something that I believe the Lord directed me to do. Thank God he did, because I don't know where we would be today and I don't know. I think we just had a few kids.

Ben: 22:06

Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. I think it was just one or two. It was a few kids.

Liz: 22:09

That's how we have the metric.

Ben: 22:11

Measure time. We measure time. How many kids do we have? When was Liz pregnant? Oh man, Dude, that's an intense story I forgot kind of some of the details in that, but yeah, I'm really thankful that that became your attitude and you were the servitarian, before we even knew what that was.

Liz: 22:29

How about that? Before we made it up?

Ben: 22:31

Well, I think I mean that, like really, I think that really shows the example of like taking the eyes off of ourselves and putting it on the other person in the good way right, like not pointing out faults but not trying to get what we want, but instead giving what that other person wants. You know and like not being selfish, not being selfish, yeah which is hard it is hard and you know it's.

Ben: 22:55

it's almost like dying to self. You know it's almost kind of like that jesus guy knew what he was talking about when he was, uh, you know, just showing the way Right. It's like that works in so many different aspects of our relationships. When we take our eyes off of the things that we need and we, we, we and it's all about me, and instead like focus on serving and not like that, you stay in abusive relationship or anything like that.

Liz: 23:20

No, like that you stay in abusive relationship or anything like that.

Ben: 23:23

No, in fact if you are in one, you need to get help and you need to take a break or get out 100%. But if you're with someone who you know is a genuine person and you know loves the Lord, it's like there's so much there that you can work with. And you can find the good in that person. You can find what the Lord is doing in that person and champion that and celebrate that, which is what you did Right and it changed your heart.

Liz: 23:47

Yeah, I mean it literally changed. Yeah, I went from wanting out to wanting in and it's been that way ever since. And we've had other rough patches. I mean, there's more that we've walked through and we probably will share some of those in episodes future episodes. But, you know that servitarian it's not 50-50, it's 100-100. And you hear that all the time.

Ben: 24:12

Right.

Liz: 24:12

But what about if you're putting in 100 and the other person's not?

Ben: 24:16

Well, I think that kind of right like it motivates that other person to see man like this person loves me.

Ben: 24:24

Yeah, and I think that that can't be understated. Like I get it right, like we all probably have seen relationships, or even maybe been in the relationship, where you didn't give 100% and maybe the other spouse was doing it. You notice that and, like I, I feel like you know, seeing that, even from you and seeing how you love me and you serve me, like that really, um, I think, opens my heart to you as well. Like, there's such a there's such power in doing that.

Liz: 24:57

Right.

Ben: 24:57

That I feel like that other person who might not be giving as much as the other. If you notice that and you see that like there's just something that kind of starts your engine towards your spouse, you know like kind of revs and starts your engine. Yeah, I mean we got all kinds of crazy metaphors in this.

Liz: 25:14

It's Valentine's Day. It's.

Ben: 25:16

Valentine's Day. It's V-Day.

Liz: 25:18

It's V-Day, victory Day.

Ben: 25:20

Victory Day.

Liz: 25:20

Victory Day. Yeah, I mean.

Ben: 25:22

I feel like that's just, that's the point. I think that's the point we're trying to make right. It's like we get it. We get that there's scriptures that you know that kind of lean this way or that way and it's really important to go through them. In fact, we're going to have like a little study guide that you guys can go through, which is a little bit of the fruit that we got from diving deep into the scriptures and going through the historical and the contextual and cultural context for these passages.

Ben: 25:52

I know I said context twice there. It's like a double context of the context, but the cultural and just the historical kind of significance of these verses, and really unpack it like what it means and then also applying it into other verses right, Making sure that like this kind of authority thing that I feel like a lot of the complementarians kind of lean towards, like they want to be right so that they can exercise this authority in a marriage relationship, and I feel like I've seen that more so than a woman trying to do kind of more of that egalitarian thing. I feel like I see a lot of men and maybe it's just me, because I'm a man kind of come at it from like, oh yeah, well, definitely, the Bible is complementarian because men are the authority and we have to be the ones in control. And I feel like that's where it gets on that slippery slope right, when you start trying to exercise your authority because you feel like it's God given, and you start skipping over verses that talk about, like, submitting to one another.

Ben: 26:56

Or laying down your life, or laying down your life and choosing your spouse over your own needs. You can find just as many verses and I feel like man. It just it kind of boggles your mind. And so again, that's where we kind of landed on this concept of you know what, if we focus our 100% mental energy on serving your spouse then it's amazing what comes back.

Ben: 27:24

It's like reaping what you sow and just choosing to serve, not putting the focus on. Well, is he treating me equal, or is she submitting to me and my role as this authority structure and blah, blah, blah, but instead let's lay down our lives for one another? I feel like that's the heart of the matter.

Liz: 27:45

I feel like you do that well.

Ben: 27:47

Well, thank you. Yeah, appreciate it. I feel like you did a good job too.

Liz: 27:50

Well, thank you, I'm not perfect, that's for sure.

Ben: 27:53

Well then you've got this guy that sometimes farts on you, so that makes it makes it kind of hard probably to want to serve.

Liz: 27:59

Oh, of course we're back to the potty humor again. I mean, I told you guys we always bring this stuff up somehow, somehow it comes up.

Ben: 28:07

It does, it really does. It's about humility. It is. It's about humility and serving, and I think we can't overstate that.

Ben: 28:15

Enough, right, it's about going low and about serving, and I'm reminded of a verse in Mark, and let's just read it. It's Mark, chapter 10, 41 through 45. And when the 10 heard about this, they became indigent with James and John, and so what we're talking about here is like James and John were asking Jesus about sitting on his left and his right hand Right, and so the 10 thought about that as like, oh well, they're asking to be kind of like higher up in the org chart.

Liz: 28:51

Right.

Ben: 28:51

They wanted to be left and right, Like where does that leave us? And so immediately they were like offended because there was this concept of like who's going to be the highest in the kingdom? And jesus, kind of like calms them down, says jesus called them together and said you know that those who are regarded as rulers of the gentile lord it over them and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be a slave of all. For even the son of man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many.

Ben: 29:37

So like we kind of see Jesus deal with that little you know little yeah, little tiff and he's like hey guys, this is, this isn't the way, this isn't the kingdom. It's not to figure out who gets the most authority, who gets to exercise it over who Like. That's, that's what the Gentiles do, that's what this, that's what this world does.

Liz: 29:55

Instead.

Ben: 29:56

I came to serve. If you want to be in a position of authority and leadership, you've got to go low and serve, and I feel like that servitarian mindset takes the argument away. From which view is right? Which scriptures do we need to read in more than others? And just we're here to serve. We're here to serve each other yeah, and lay down our lives for one another, like that's the, that's what Jesus is wanting us to do. I feel like that's what works when we do in the context of our marriage.

Ben: 30:23

And just like you talked about. It really changes our outlook.

Liz: 30:27

That's right.

Ben: 30:27

Even when there's tough times, when we focus on that serving piece, it really does unlock something.

Liz: 30:32

Well and it did in my heart. You know it served, it saved our marriage.

Ben: 30:37

Yeah.

Liz: 30:37

I mean, you know, looking back at that in that time, that was kind of a scary place to be, and I know that there's others that probably are listening to this, maybe have been there or are there.

Ben: 30:47

Right.

Liz: 30:47

And you know, there is something about laying down your life for the other.

Ben: 30:52

There is, there really is, yeah, and it's hard to go through. It's not easy. It's not an easy thing, no Right, you know, if it was so easy, there wouldn't be a lot of this conversation about you know, which way is right. It would just become natural because we're just so easy to serve. But it takes a lot of hard work and you're not hard selfish.

Liz: 31:15

Yeah.

Ben: 31:16

Not amazing Kind of born that way I know I am.

Liz: 31:20

This coffee is not hot enough.

Ben: 31:22

Go back and make me some more.

Liz: 31:23

Go back in there and make me more coffee. Yeah, although I will say I do enjoy when you make me my cup of coffee in the morning. You, you guys, took a little bit of training 20 years. Well, I mean to get it just right With the right amount of cream, the right color. Now, keep in mind, I'm married to an artist. So it's, all about the color, like he figured out the shade.

Ben: 31:45

Maybe I should get like a latte machine and do like the little you know, the leaf petals and the milk. Oh yeah, you know what I'm saying you?

Liz: 31:53

need to be doing that.

Ben: 31:55

I would like for you to serve me like that. I feel like this just got really expensive.

Liz: 31:59

You're just kidding. And now, too late too late, too late. So there's going to be a study guide.

Ben: 32:10

There is. Yeah, we'll put a little link and it'll go through like a lot of the verses that typically the egalitarian viewpoint come from, and then also the complementarian.

Ben: 32:17

Yeah, and you know we do like a deep dive and we just go through them and we talk about what means for each context and stuff, and then kind of where we net out, just where we have netted out personally and with this servitarian mindset. So if you guys are interested in that, just take a look at the show notes and there'll be a way to get that information.

Liz: 32:37

And we just want to say happy Valentine's Day.

Ben: 32:38

Yeah, happy Valentine's Day Happy.

Liz: 32:39

Valentine's Day. We are so happy and we love love and we're all about love.

Ben: 32:46

That's right, even in the form of passing gas.

Liz: 32:49

Okay, so we're going to end on that. Note, now we're done. I was going to be all lovey-dovey, but we're over. So note, now we're done. I was going to be all lovey dovey, but we're over. So thank you for being a part of our one blessed mess today. It literally has been a blessed mess, our one BM for real. But don't forget to subscribe, share like heart, however you're listening to this, and pass this along to somebody that you think would be encouraged. Of course, we are talking about Valentine's day, but, truly, like, every day should be Valentine's Day. It doesn't have to be just one day. We feel like this topic and the subject that we're talking about is good for a lot of people to hear and maybe to bring clarity. Definitely, check out that study guide below, but follow us on Instagram. We do have a Instagram page. We have a Facebook page, so follow us there. But just remember, until next time, embrace your beautiful mess, because if our mess can be blessed, then we know, so can yours.

Liz: 33:43

Yes, it can have a great, great day.